Difference between Li-Po and Li-Ion

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Difference between Li-Po and Li-Ion

Postby MySwan » Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:30 pm

Obviously they're both made out of different substances and Li-Ions are more common in the everyday world and use liquid. Yet, in terms of durability/volatility is there a big difference? I know if you ever see a Li-Po expand, smoke, get really hot that they should just be dumped. I ended up leaving my bag at a friends house after a game and left my Li-Ion in my bag and it had probably an 80% charge. When I finally got it home I was too eager and put it in my gun. Pulled the trigger once and nothing. Two more times and I looked at it confused. Then smoke started coming out so I took it out ASAP and put it in a cement block outside on concrete. My main concern is obviously my gun and my secondary concern is should I just throw it out? Correctly of course but I don't know if some of the same rules apply to these batteries as Li-Po's. I mean smoke coming out is a big concern always but just by chance what state is it in?
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Re: Difference between Li-Po and Li-Ion

Postby Riddick » Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:10 pm

It's upsidedown. Time to buy a new one.

Thread :lock:
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Re: Difference between Li-Po and Li-Ion

Postby Jester316 » Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:32 pm

Batteries are cheap.
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Re: Difference between Li-Po and Li-Ion

Postby Dexter » Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:49 pm

lions roar and lipos don't?

Seriously though, toss it... But not in a fire... Or in the trash can. Smoke in an AEG is never good.
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Re: Difference between Li-Po and Li-Ion

Postby MySwan » Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:30 pm

Dexter wrote:lions roar and lipos don't?

Seriously though, toss it... But not in a fire... Or in the trash can. Smoke in an AEG is never good.

That's what logic told me but I didn't know if they had some weird special thing about them. This battery has been used for a long time and maybe finally wore out. I'm just scared my M6 is dead. I'll probably cut off the deans for my friend cause he wants to rewire to it.
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Re: Difference between Li-Po and Li-Ion

Postby MySwan » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:12 pm

Riddick wrote:It's f***ed. Time to buy a new one.

Thread :lock:

Also, my friend I bought it from who's been using it for awhile had the gun wired deans to 22 awg with this 11.1 Li-Ion should I be concerned?
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Re: Difference between Li-Po and Li-Ion

Postby Steve » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:50 pm

MySwan wrote:Obviously they're both made out of different substances and Li-Ions are more common in the everyday world and use liquid. Yet, in terms of durability/volatility is there a big difference? I know if you ever see a Li-Po expand, smoke, get really hot that they should just be dumped. I ended up leaving my bag at a friends house after a game and left my Li-Ion in my bag and it had probably an 80% charge. When I finally got it home I was too eager and put it in my gun. Pulled the trigger once and nothing. Two more times and I looked at it confused. Then smoke started coming out so I took it out ASAP and put it in a cement block outside on concrete. My main concern is obviously my gun and my secondary concern is should I just throw it out? Correctly of course but I don't know if some of the same rules apply to these batteries as Li-Po's. I mean smoke coming out is a big concern always but just by chance what state is it in?


Short answer: For your purposes, they are pretty much the same. If it smokes, it's fragged.

The slightly longer answer:
Li-ion batteries tend to be slightly less energy-dense than li-pos. It's not because different lithium compounds are used so much as it is a difference in the separation mechanism between the anode and cathodes. This means for an identical volume, you get a teensy bit more power out of a lipo than a li-ion. Maybe 10%, maybe.
LiPos tend to be more expensive, maybe 25% or so because the polymer thin film is more expensive.
Because of the polymer, LiPos can be all sorts of different shapes (round, rectangular, square, etc.) Li-Ions are kinda stuck in squarish shapes, and tend to be thinker than comparable LiPos. LiPos self-discharge a teensy bit slower than Li-Ions.
In both cases, it's a bad idea to completely discharge your batteries. It cuts the number of recharges before your pack quits way down (in some cases, to one and then it catches on fire). Intelligent balance chargers are also a very good idea. And pull the batteries when the game is over. If you have any current draw (like a programmable mosfet, or even a slight leak across the trigger contacts) you'll kill the battery. A good LiPo should give you 300-400 charges if you don't screw with it.

Once you flat-line a LiPo and your balance charger tells you that the cell voltage is too low, you MIGHT be able to bring it back by giving it a bit of charge through a wall wart. However, LiPos are quite a bit cheaper than AEGs, and WAY cheaper than the deductible on your renters or homeowners insurance. I.e., screwing with charging a failing LiPo is asking to burn down your house. Personally, I'd always recommend just buying a replacement. Even if you only have 1 bad cell out of a three cell pack, batteries are cheap enough and easy enough to find that it's not worth peeling apart a pack to salvage the good cells.
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Re: Difference between Li-Po and Li-Ion

Postby MySwan » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:27 pm

Steve wrote:
MySwan wrote:Obviously they're both made out of different substances and Li-Ions are more common in the everyday world and use liquid. Yet, in terms of durability/volatility is there a big difference? I know if you ever see a Li-Po expand, smoke, get really hot that they should just be dumped. I ended up leaving my bag at a friends house after a game and left my Li-Ion in my bag and it had probably an 80% charge. When I finally got it home I was too eager and put it in my gun. Pulled the trigger once and nothing. Two more times and I looked at it confused. Then smoke started coming out so I took it out ASAP and put it in a cement block outside on concrete. My main concern is obviously my gun and my secondary concern is should I just throw it out? Correctly of course but I don't know if some of the same rules apply to these batteries as Li-Po's. I mean smoke coming out is a big concern always but just by chance what state is it in?


Short answer: For your purposes, they are pretty much the same. If it smokes, it's fragged.

The slightly longer answer:
Li-ion batteries tend to be slightly less energy-dense than li-pos. It's not because different lithium compounds are used so much as it is a difference in the separation mechanism between the anode and cathodes. This means for an identical volume, you get a teensy bit more power out of a lipo than a li-ion. Maybe 10%, maybe.
LiPos tend to be more expensive, maybe 25% or so because the polymer thin film is more expensive.
Because of the polymer, LiPos can be all sorts of different shapes (round, rectangular, square, etc.) Li-Ions are kinda stuck in squarish shapes, and tend to be thinker than comparable LiPos. LiPos self-discharge a teensy bit slower than Li-Ions.
In both cases, it's a bad idea to completely discharge your batteries. It cuts the number of recharges before your pack quits way down (in some cases, to one and then it catches on fire). Intelligent balance chargers are also a very good idea. And pull the batteries when the game is over. If you have any current draw (like a programmable mosfet, or even a slight leak across the trigger contacts) you'll kill the battery. A good LiPo should give you 300-400 charges if you don't screw with it.

Once you flat-line a LiPo and your balance charger tells you that the cell voltage is too low, you MIGHT be able to bring it back by giving it a bit of charge through a wall wart. However, LiPos are quite a bit cheaper than AEGs, and WAY cheaper than the deductible on your renters or homeowners insurance. I.e., screwing with charging a failing LiPo is asking to burn down your house. Personally, I'd always recommend just buying a replacement. Even if you only have 1 bad cell out of a three cell pack, batteries are cheap enough and easy enough to find that it's not worth peeling apart a pack to salvage the good cells.


Thank you for the long response. My second question is how upsidedown is my AEG?
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Re: Difference between Li-Po and Li-Ion

Postby Steve » Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:45 pm

Depends. I'd probably check it with a multimeter to see if it is shorted. If not, toss another lipo pack in and see if it works. If it doesn't shoot, your gearbox is probably jammed. Oh! Check the fuse first. Then a multimeter, then a lipo pack. It's highly unlikely that it is significantly damaged just from the battery being left in it.
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Re: Difference between Li-Po and Li-Ion

Postby MySwan » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:43 am

Steve wrote:Depends. I'd probably check it with a multimeter to see if it is shorted. If not, toss another lipo pack in and see if it works. If it doesn't shoot, your gearbox is probably jammed. Oh! Check the fuse first. Then a multimeter, then a lipo pack. It's highly unlikely that it is significantly damaged just from the battery being left in it.

That's not the problem, the problem is that I took a Li-Ion that has been sitting for a month at 90% charge and when I put it in my gun and pulled the trigger a few times smoke came from the deans connector and now my gun won't fire with another battery.
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Re: Difference between Li-Po and Li-Ion

Postby Steve » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:37 pm

Right. Take the gun WITHOUT a battery. Take a multimeter. Set it to ohms (looks like an upside down horseshoe). Plug the probes into the battery plug. Again, NO BATTERY. Plug the multimeter probes into the port your battery plugs into. There should infinite resistance (no current should flow). Pull and hold the trigger in full auto. Resistance should show up (unless you have a mosfet). Resistance registers when trigger not pulled? You've got a short. Open circuit regardless of trigger, and no mosfet? Check your fuse. If it still doesn't work, I'd take it in to a tech. But, if you can't / won't do that:

While you have the multimeter out, check the voltage and current of your test battery pack to make sure it works. The settings will be "DC Voltage" and current as amps or milliamperes. If the battery is dead, you'll need to replace it and restart your troubleshooting.

Unhook the motor and physically remove it from the gun. Reconnect the AEG to the motor with the motor not physically in the gun. Plug a battery in to the gun. If the motor spins when you pull the trigger, then your gearbox is locked up. The motor can't overcome the resistance from the fragged gearbox, and that is what caused your battery to burn. If the motor does not spin, either your wires are shot or your motor is. Disconnect the motor from the AEG. Connect your motor directly to a voltage source. If it works, your wiring or mosfet or fuse box is bad.

Generally, you should be able to narrow down what is fragged by isolating each component and testing it. For cost reasons, hope you blew a fuse.
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Re: Difference between Li-Po and Li-Ion

Postby MySwan » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:05 pm

Steve wrote:Right. Take the gun WITHOUT a battery. Take a multimeter. Set it to ohms (looks like an upside down horseshoe). Plug the probes into the battery plug. Again, NO BATTERY. Plug the multimeter probes into the port your battery plugs into. There should infinite resistance (no current should flow). Pull and hold the trigger in full auto. Resistance should show up (unless you have a mosfet). Resistance registers when trigger not pulled? You've got a short. Open circuit regardless of trigger, and no mosfet? Check your fuse. If it still doesn't work, I'd take it in to a tech. But, if you can't / won't do that:

While you have the multimeter out, check the voltage and current of your test battery pack to make sure it works. The settings will be "DC Voltage" and current as amps or milliamperes. If the battery is dead, you'll need to replace it and restart your troubleshooting.

Unhook the motor and physically remove it from the gun. Reconnect the AEG to the motor with the motor not physically in the gun. Plug a battery in to the gun. If the motor spins when you pull the trigger, then your gearbox is locked up. The motor can't overcome the resistance from the fragged gearbox, and that is what caused your battery to burn. If the motor does not spin, either your wires are shot or your motor is. Disconnect the motor from the AEG. Connect your motor directly to a voltage source. If it works, your wiring or mosfet or fuse box is bad.

Generally, you should be able to narrow down what is fragged by isolating each component and testing it. For cost reasons, hope you blew a fuse.

Perfect. That gives me everything I need to know. I don't have a fuse and the wiring is 22 awg. So my gun is probably screwed but I'll figure it out.
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