Why does the Military hate M9s

[The Murse]

I know in airsoft M9's have a stupid spring that breaks alot, or something similar but I don't know why people hate real steel M9's. I have shot one and loved it. I know it's heavier than a glock, but I love the sights on it and the way it feels.

Can anyone shed some light?

[Jewish Ninja]

Because the issued ones aren't properly maintained and the issued mags are total shit. I've also heard a story about a Navy SEAL testing one and the slide blew off the frame and killed him, but that's a rumor.

[Tankwitch]

Early M9's were also issued with ammo that was over PSI for the model as well. Blowing the slide off the frame, and into the shooters face. I've seen unconfirmed reports of this happening within the last few years as well. They are nice pistols, but have problems. But I don't know of any pistol that doesn't have some problem.
Before you even say it 1911 or Glock fanboys both those pistols have problems.

[The Murse]

Oh wow. Didn't know it was that extreme, even in rumor form. I thought maintenance of gear came before sleep.

I looked this up else where and it really came down to two things,

1)Reliability
2) Preform (accuracy and power)

1A) The mags that have been given to services vs from the factory are crap in comparison (springs feeding rounds, and mags failing to eject when the mag release is activated).

1B) The slides get jammed due to sand and improper maintenance


2A) Accuracy has come into question in the form of groupings on targets and due to the large grip/overall bulk of the gun makes it uncomfortable to shoot unless the shooter has large hands

2B) as far as power, see 9mm vs .40 cal vs. 45cal arguments

[Kommodant]

You have to remember that a lot of military gear is made by the cheapest source and/or best value. I love my M92FS but I've shot my friend's duty M9 and it was a load of crap. As for airsoft, it's hit and miss. Both my KWA PTP and M93R are the best airsoft pistols I've owned, but I've also used a cheap M9 and it blew up. You get what you pay for.

[1SGT.Reaper]

The M9 is almost universally hated by the military, that is why the Marines switched back to the 1911. Also SF never complied to the U.S switching to the M9 many units adopted other guns, the Recon units in the Corp kept their trusty 1911s even after the Marines switched. The Seals had the bad exprience of the Handgun exploding, but depending on who you ask its a rumor or its true. The mags that the military buys for the M9s are dog crap, and the fine sand of Iraq makes them jam very easily or not feed at all. Which is bad when you are in a life or death situation obviously, and the fact that you would have to use an M9 as a last ditch weapon is saddening. The Army refuses to change to another weapon, simiply because they are making so much money on the M9. They are recieving extra money from Beretta to insure its continued usage. Also stopping power is dog crap, 9mm dosent stop a terrorist that is determined to kill you, unless you shoot him in the head. In combat the likely hood of being able to pull off a headshot with a pistol, is very slim. All these reasons are why you see SF guys using Glocks, Sigs, and 1911s, and some french special forces i.e GIGN still use revolvers

[Kommodant]

The Army refuses to change to another weapon, simiply because they are making so much money on the M9. They are recieving extra money from Beretta to insure its continued usage.

Please provide evidence? I've never heard this stated before.

[1SGT.Reaper]

Please provide evidence? I've never heard this stated before.

Okay I will, I'll do some digging and provide the link. Basically its the same deal as why the M16 was adopted. Nothing talks better than Money

[Jester316]

Please provide evidence? I've never heard this stated before.

Okay I will, I'll do some digging and provide the link. Basically its the same deal as why the M16 was adopted. Nothing talks better than Money

Actually the M16 was adopted because it wasn't affected by the weather in the jungles like the wooden stock of the m14, it shot a lighter round which means each soldier could carry more rounds, and it was marketed as "no maintenance needed".

Also the caliber argument for military sidearms is pretty much useless due to our strict adherence to the Geneva Convention that we never signed saying we would only use FMJ rounds. Any pistol round (and rifle rounds as well) are not one shot drop rounds contrary to popular belief. Anything other than severing the brain stem will not result in immediate death.

[Airsoftee]

To clear up the rumor about what happened with the SEALs and the M9. At a "show" for visiting military hierchy a SEAL was firing a M9 when the slide broke off and scratched his cheek, medical care was there so immediately and such a fuss was made that viewing SEALs thought it might have been rigged. The M9 was very soon replaced by the P226, I'll find the title of the autobiography as soon as I have some spare time.

[1SGT.Reaper]

Any pistol round (and rifle rounds as well) are not one shot drop rounds contrary to popular belief. Anything other than severing the brain stem will not result in immediate death.

I'm not saying its a one shot drop, I was just saying its a lot more effective, bigger round traveling slower, does more damage even if it is FMJ. As the 45 has the tendency to tumble upon impact, there is no such thing as one shot instant kills with pistols or rifles unless you sever the brain stem. All I was trying to say is your gonna slow them down more. Also M16 was also adopted because of campaign contributions i.e money, but the "no maintenance" was also a huge factor.

[Jester316]

Any pistol round (and rifle rounds as well) are not one shot drop rounds contrary to popular belief. Anything other than severing the brain stem will not result in immediate death.

I'm not saying its a one shot drop, I was just saying its a lot more effective, bigger round traveling slower, does more damage even if it is FMJ. As the 45 has the tendency to tumble upon impact, there is no such thing as one shot instant kills with pistols or rifles unless you sever the brain stem. All I was trying to say is your gonna slow them down more. Also M16 was also adopted because of campaign contributions i.e money, but the "no maintenance" was also a huge factor.

Again, not really. The theory that a bigger slower bullet does more damage is fairly flawed. And ALL bullets tumble when they impact something... Unless they hit something at a 90 degree perpendicular angle, which if you can do that with a solid object in the human body, awesome on you.

Ballistic wounds are tricky. You have 2 wound paths to deal with: You have the permanent cavity and the temporary cavity. The permanent is the track of tissue that is permanently damages (think the tunnel created by the bullet). The temporary cavity is the tissue that is affected not by the bullet directly, but by the energetic forces AROUND the bullet. These crush and push tissues out of the way. The elastic nature of these tissues causes them to spring back into their *normal positions within the wound, however their very cellular structure is now damaged.

Remember that KE=.5MV^2

Kinetic Energy (KE) = 1/2 Mass x Velocity x Velocity

For a standard 9mm FMJ round: 420ft/lbs of energy
For a standard .45ACP FMJ: 352ft/lbs of energy

You can see that a smaller faster bullet has more energy to dump into it's target upon impact. The argument of bigger=more deadly stems from the fact that the bigger bullet has more surface area for that energy to dissipate through. But that is still a non-issue because by the time both bullets strike bone, they would have equivalent KE's due to the bleed off of the 9mm and the retention of the .45's heavier weight.


Now, all this goes out the window when you allow JHP's and the high quality self-defense ammo available today. If you want a one shot drop get a .600 Nitro Express revolver.


*normal as can be after such an injury

[Nodachi]

Oh boy, it's becoming a 9mm vs .45 thread...

Anyway, the argument is a bit silly since other than MARSOC and the behemoth that is the Mk 23, everyone pretty much still uses 9mm. (Sig 226 that the SEALS like so much is 9mm, you know...)

[Jewish Ninja]

The Army refuses to change to another weapon, simiply because they are making so much money on the M9. They are recieving extra money from Beretta to insure its continued usage.

Please provide evidence? I've never heard this stated before.

The main reason they don't switch it is sidearms hardly see use in the field and switching to a new gun is a lot more costly than you think. You have to retrain armors on maintaining them, switching out an inventory of spare parts buy a new supply of mags and other boring things. Are there better performing pistols out there? Yes. Is it really worth it to change to something new that doesn't provide a 100% increase in function? Nope.

[Welshy McSheeplove]

Standard issue handgun for Marines is still the M9. Also, very few infantrymen actually get issued handguns, so their use as "backup" weapons is pretty limited.

SIGs that SEALs are using are chambered for 9mm. Glocks that Army SF and AFSOC are using are 9mm and .40. So your "hurr durr can't stop a dude with a 9mm" argument just went out the window.

The Army are not making money off the M9. They, along with most of the branches, don't want to switch because because a.) handguns don't get used that much, for obvious reasons, and b.) you don't just "switch" a weapon willy nilly. It's a huge, convoluted, long term logistical shitstorm. The Marines just started issuing the M27 in 2011. You know when the IAR project started? 2006. The only branch that was able to successfully completely transition to a new handgun was the Coast Guard, because they actually use handguns a lot and because the entire USCG is smaller than the NYPD.

Most common complaints about the M9 are the poor construction of the magazines (same issue with the M4s, most problems can be traced back to the mags), and the just absolute shit ergonomics of the weapon. The ergonomics is the more common of the two, because the M9 actually sees very limited use overseas.

1SGTReaper, for the love of God, shut your tool holster.