The Decline of AP.com

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The Decline of AP.com

Postby Cruz FoxHound » Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:39 pm

The Decline of AP.com

As a relatively new player in the PNW, there has been a learning curve to understanding our community. From what I have seen in our region & other places in America, it appears we are very fortunate to have one of the best-organized airsoft communities. While there are many involved & enthusiastic organizers in the area, with whom we are blessed (frankly), I believe our strength is largely a result of AirsoftPacific.com.

Since its inception on March 14th, 2007 (yesterday was the 9-year anniversary), AP.com has racked up just under 95 million views — a remarkable volume for such a niche sport. It has acted as a platform for rookie & veteran players alike to share knowledge, experiences, organize new teams, & plan future games. AP.com is the reason I was able to get involved in the PNW even before my family relocated to Portland by making my introduction seamless. I know I am not alone in this experience, although I’ve seen some younger players receive a harder welcome than myself.

While attending the most recent War Sport NW game at Camp Rilea (OP: Steel Talon), I took the time to speak with experienced players from several different teams about their thoughts on airsoft in our region. Above all, there was one thing that every single one of them agreed upon:

AirsoftPacific.com is not being properly maintained, moderated, or promoted & the inevitable result will be its phasing out.

This wasn’t something that was spoken with anger or venom, but rather melancholy disappointment. Everyone that I spoke to had invested a lot of time on AP.com to develop the community & were frustrated by lack of positive moderation. One of the most common complaints was of old cadre, who are incredibly experienced & possess a wealth of knowledge, are too easily frustrated by “noob questions” & readily supply sarcasm rather than encouragement. Or worse yet, there were also accounts (which I have not taken the time to personally verify) of moderators themselves replying to simple beginner’s questions with negativity. I have myself witnessed that one of the easiest ways to receive backlash on AP.com is by posting with improper spelling or grammar. While it is outstanding that some people still care about language form, perhaps we need to do our best to answer a question if the author basically makes his/her point since this is not an English enthusiasts page.

The first headline that a new visitor to AP.com reads is from September, 2014. The “Latest Poll” was posted in November 2014 & only 137 people have voted since then. Without further investigation, anyone that is not from the region could almost safely assume the website is merely an advertisement-toting ghost with sponsor-link swag. The reality, however, is that our airsoft community is THRIVING & grows bigger every day. Our teams are incredibly well-developed with legitimate websites, patches, uniform & communications standards. More people are constantly getting involved & they need a virtual place where it is possible to connect with ease & encouragement, where news is fresh & bio BBs grow little flowers when they degrade (partial joke). I understand it is easy to paint a rosy picture, but my point is that our virtual community should be an extension of our actual community & reflect what we really are.

I am calling upon the operators & admins of AirsoftPacific.com to re-energize the website by assigning new moderators, bringing on new writers to create current articles & reviews, & to once again take active interest in the community. If the current operators & admins are unable or unwilling, I call upon them to pass the torch to current members of the community that are willing to do so, thus bringing new life into our virtual community.

The truth is that we love AP.com & want the best community we can have in the PNW. This is why we are online & hope to be as long as we are slinging BBs within FPS limits.

Thank you for reading my post.
* Calling hits is the cornerstone of the game * Leaders live by example * Play with HONOR *
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Re: The Decline of AP.com

Postby Tankwitch » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:21 pm

The death spiral is hard to avoid for even the biggest sites. So only the most dedicated remain after awhile. People still use AP just not for talking. People only seem to use this site for the business of finding and signing up for games.

The problem is that airsoft has a nasty learning curve. So people have questions, but the technical and philosophical questions have been "answered." This doesn't mean that new or interesting questions can be posed, but we have been stilted towards the possibility of new ways. "Mil-sim" has become the standard for the old guard and the new guard has yet to learn the place they occupy. As people "age" in the community they occupy different places but AP has begun to delineate to few ways of "being." This in my mind causes the death spiral, a psychic rigidity towards possibility due to experience building beyond the breaking point.

The question I pose is this: "Can AP be said to be a vibrant community?"
The answer I find in my heart is a sad no. Can it be again? Maybe. It will take more than a few people. It would take a cultural revolution. One not likely to happen.

To undermine myself in my pseudo wisdom, I give you some ultra obscure "Korean weeaboo" music. Enjoy;
I'm a major chairsofter, sorry about that.
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Re: The Decline of AP.com

Postby Jester316 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:19 pm

AP declined due to the influx of new people who want things handed to them and go crying away when the meet any resistance.

You say that it's easier to just answer a question instead of directing someone to the search feature. Imagine this for a moment: I've been here since 10/16/2007. That's roughly 8.5 years. That's 102 months. 3,102 days (not counting leap years). Average one log on a day (more like 5-6 back in the first 5 years of my tenure here). I have seen the same questions asked tens of thousands of times. "What gun is the best?" "What weight BB's should I use?" "What is the best sniper out there for under $70?". These are questions that I've seen come up every month of the past 8.5 years. Every time these questions are posted, they are archived. This site has a fancy search feature where you can put your favorite criteria into a box and it will pull up EVERY post with a matching word.

We've answered all the questions numerous times. If someone would take 5 min to go through the search feature, chances are their question would be answered. But if it's not, then they can post it and pick the hive mind.

On the topic of grammar and "this not being an English enthusiast page": This is a game of honor. Many times the only place we meet each other is on the field. This means your impression on line represents who you are. If you can't take the time to proof read your posts, or form a coherent thought, how can we trust that you will call your hits? Or that you will adhere by minimum FPS or engagement distances? Show pride in your online self. There is absolutely 0 questions that are so important that someone cannot take a moment to proof read and correct mistakes. Add in the fact that every internet browser has a built in spell checker, there is no reason for mistakes.

So, how do we fix it? Don't call on the moderators. Their job is not to infuse new life into this website. Calling on them shows that you are part of the problem. You want things fixed but aren't willing to put the work in. The beauty of a public forum is that EVERYONE can create content and post it.
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Re: The Decline of AP.com

Postby Reascr » Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:11 pm

Honestly, I feel the site suffers from being a full blown site and not something far more simple. /r/Airsoft is a more useful site for me to be able to use because you get answers faster, often more varied, and enough content is posted due to simplicity of being able to have stuff posted (And be encouraged in fake internet points) gives you a lot of options you wouldn't potentially know of otherwise. Plus, the sidebar of /r/Airsoft has a lot of really useful information that you are basically forced to look at to submit, and answers many beginner questions in a wiki that's partially maintained. It makes newbie questions a little easier to answer because you can just direct them to the wiki with their question, and the whole wiki is very well written out in such a way to make it easy to understand and I feel it does help cut down on the questions, although maybe that's just because many of us are older players of the sport. Plus a few other things here and there, but it doesn't work as a regional hub or anything like AP which is an issue, any event talked about on it is going to be a larger event, I heard mention of Steel Talon on there and MSW events are often discussed.

Add the simplicity of a site where many people have an account, like reddit or Facebook, and a decline of a less supported, less promoted, etc website is almost to be expected as much of a shame it is. And my post is too much of a ramble, tell me (Please, I tend to go on without recognizing it) and I'll try to slim it down or outright delete it
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Re: The Decline of AP.com

Postby Cruz FoxHound » Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:20 pm

Jester, actually, I did attempt to become a moderator (Message quoted from 9/28/2015):

Matt wrote:Hi Foxhound, we do need some help around here. Our current moderators aren't really engaged with the hobby anymore. If you'd be interested I'd be happy to set you up as a mod.

Cruz FoxHound wrote:Hey Matt,

How does someone become a content moderator for AP.com? There have been several instances of needing an unbiased moderator to remove negative and off-topic comments in important threads. I would potentially like to volunteer for such a position if there was a process or someone to speak to.

Thanks,
-- FoxHound


After my last message To Matt confirming my interest & asking questions about taking the position, he has never responded. I have sent him other emails regarding different subjects & they remain unanswered. I call on the moderators because that's the chain of command. After attempting to speak with the site manager in private (with no results) I am bringing the idea into public.

Yes, anyone can post a thread, but not anyone can post a headline story. In order to get writers, someone would need approval from the Mods in the first place. I have received permission from Matt in the past to write stories but I'm just one guy. Yes, I do want things fixed & I am absolutely willing to put the work in. This is why I have contacted Matt several times in the past & am now bringing the discussion to the rest of AP.

I appreciate your feedback. Thank you for sharing your side of the experience.
* Calling hits is the cornerstone of the game * Leaders live by example * Play with HONOR *
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Re: The Decline of AP.com

Postby Payback » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:23 pm

I kinda skipped over most of the above and caught some highlights. This might have been said already.

In my opinion allot of new players won't/don't use AP simply because it's a hostile environment and there are easier venues now. Facebook was the biggest one in the last few years. Easier to post on, sell, ask questions. All mobile devices have it.

Reddit is weird to me, but i'm old, so i don't get it :)

The issue i had with AP was the grammar nazi's, and the hostility to simple questions. You don't have to click that reply button. You can ignore it. It will die after a while. Some of us do have a problem with ignoring things, but it can be done. I am one who usually will reply with something.

Yes there are times that when the grammar was so bad you couldn't understand what was being said, then something could be said about it. But i have been hit for misplacing a comma, or omitting one. Totally throws off the reason for the post, or the answer when you have to read through 10 posts about grammar. Not fun.

And the whole clip/mag thing. Holy crap, sometimes i swear somebody pissed in their coffee or kicked them in the balls. We all know what they mean, not every person needs a lesson on what a clip is and what a mag is. Facebook is even worse for this, but allot easier to ignore.

I know many people, more than i can count on my fingers and toes, that won't post on AP for these reasons valid or not.

I keep coming back because i've met great friends and learned allot on this site. I tend to be a bigger A-hole than most, so i can deal with the jabs.

Now that facebook is shutting down airsoft pages i see that AP will liven up a bit more. But it does need to get updated to be more mobile friendly and maybe even an app.
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Re: The Decline of AP.com

Postby McNair » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:34 am

AP has been around longer than 2007. I think that was just when this particular version of the forum was introduced. There were a few versions before that.
I've been playing since 2000 and I believe I met Matt in '02 or '03? AP started up shortly after in some form. I had a page going with the same ideas, just not the same skills Matt had so he made AP and it was a bit more legit and inviting to the masses.

As Darius said... Facebook.
It just works better all around. I am a member of countless groups on there for sales, specific genres of airsoft, communities both local and national, teams, event specific groups, etc.
Its just much simpler and efficient than using forums. All my bullshit is one location. I don't have to log in to a different site and scroll through all the same old new guy bullshit that was a daily thing on here. I can go to whatever particular group I am interested in and check the info there. I am not a member of any groups that are full of new guy questions... After 16 years... I just don't give a shazaam about kids first getting into airsoft. Now, if you want to talk to me about getting into serious Milsim shit, I'll talk to you. But I don't care about helping you pick out your first gun that despite us telling you don't buy it, you'll ignore us and just call us dicks or something.
Also, on Facebook, kids can't hide behind some "forum handle" like they do on here. 99% of the time, the facebook profile they use is them and I can see who the shazaam they are. On here, I've seen people like Mark Fontaine make 20 different accounts or keep changing his name once people figure out who he is and treat him appropriately(but even he has multiple facebook accounts).

AP is dead. Matt doesn't give a shazaam about it as he has way more shit going on in his life that actually matters.
Now it is just a bank of outdated reference material.
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Re: The Decline of AP.com

Postby Cruz FoxHound » Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:20 pm

I would really hesitate to call AP.com "dead" & this is at the core of my point -- it is just drifting.

The fact that so many people know about the site & talk about it at games is a strong indication of a very successful website. It just needs to be revitalized with some new material & involved moderation. If someone doesn't want to be involved anymore, the right thing to do for the community is to identify responsible, willing people & pass it on. We are all talking about the same thing here, being adaptation. To hold its place as a prominent network, AP.com needs to adapt to the new times & that starts with getting the right people at the helm.
* Calling hits is the cornerstone of the game * Leaders live by example * Play with HONOR *
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Re: The Decline of AP.com

Postby Nocte » Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:48 pm

McNair wrote:AP has been around longer than 2005.


Fixed, but close enough. :)

Jester316 wrote:So, how do we fix it? Don't call on the moderators. Their job is not to infuse new life into this website. Calling on them shows that you are part of the problem. You want things fixed but aren't willing to put the work in. The beauty of a public forum is that EVERYONE can create content and post it.


This, 100%.

AP is only as dead as you want it to be. While a lot of us have stepped away from airsoft to pursue new hobbies, grow families, etc., games keep getting scheduled and attended; it's the remaining community that found an alternative method of discussion for one reason or another. If you don't prefer those alternatives and prefer forums, by all means, continue to contribute content here. Answer questions, post reviews, host events. Keep posting funny shit in Off-Topic, that was our /r/funny before most of us found reddit. If you're looking for a consume-only source of content, you're probably going to be stuck going where others prefer to contribute.

That said, 10 years ago reddit was just getting started and Facebook didn't have as many event features as it does today (MySpace was still the social-media site of choice). Web-based forums were the place to go for active community discussions. If you're looking answers to frequently-asked questions, they still serve that purpose.
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Re: The Decline of AP.com

Postby MySwan » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:03 pm

I agree that AP seems like a site that is just kind of there instead alive. I joined this site probably last year and started playing airsoft last year and I haven't noticed much hostility except for some things I actually overreacted on which was kind of embarassing for who I am but I let it go. I started playing last summer and now I've got my kit and everything almost ready for MSW. Then again I have had help from a friend who has been into airsoft way longer than I have and he has guided and answered my questions a lot. Facebook and Reddit do seem like way better places but as we all know Facebook has taken a recent hostility it seems like to airsoft but that's mainly because of people trying to sell stuff on there plus I like to keep my family and friends who don't know tool about the sport separate but the airsoft community local. Also the whole mag/clips thing is more of a real steel problem rather than airsoft and if you call a magazine a clip or vice versa it just makes you look stupid and is kind of cringy mainly because it resonates with anti-gunner BS.
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Re: The Decline of AP.com

Postby Cruz FoxHound » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:40 am

Nocte, thanks for joining the conversation. What if someone is interested in more involvement or responsibility with AP.com? How can a member go about becoming a mod or posting headline content to the site?
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Re: The Decline of AP.com

Postby Rentax » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:49 am

MySwan wrote:I agree that AP seems like a site that is just kind of there instead alive. I joined this site probably last year and started playing airsoft last year and I haven't noticed much hostility except for some things I actually overreacted on which was kind of embarassing for who I am but I let it go. I started playing last summer and now I've got my kit and everything almost ready for MSW. Then again I have had help from a friend who has been into airsoft way longer than I have and he has guided and answered my questions a lot. Facebook and Reddit do seem like way better places but as we all know Facebook has taken a recent hostility it seems like to airsoft but that's mainly because of people trying to sell stuff on there plus I like to keep my family and friends who don't know tool about the sport separate but the airsoft community local. Also the whole mag/clips thing is more of a real steel problem rather than airsoft and if you call a magazine a clip or vice versa it just makes you look stupid and is kind of cringy mainly because it resonates with anti-gunner BS.


This foxhound...
Is exactly what Andrew was talking about.

I'm going to be rather long winded in my response, not because I think it's needed, but because this topic touches on something that I am very passionate about, as my teammates will attest to, and that something is community.
(I'm sure they are all "cringy" right now)

I joined AP back in 2005, a buddy of mine took me to my first game, "Another Crack House" (you can still find that game thread here on AP) the player count was somewhere around 50, and that was considered a nice sized game back then. Airsoft was beginning to catch on here in the States, but replicas were still hard to come by, and in order to own a replica you were either paying the exuberant shipping costs form Tokyo or buying some cheap HFC gun from any of handful of paintball places that were selling them. Events back there were once every couple months and AP was already a hot spot for players in the area to come and find out about events, replicas, and anything airsoft related. The player base created by the events made for the same crowd on and off the field. You would shoot at each other on Saturday, and shoot the shit with each other in the forums for the rest of the week. You got to know players on and off the field and because we were all here to play, and we all had to go to the same games weather you liked someone or hated them you were forced to interact with them. Sure we had our problems, our problem kids, our trolls, guys who hated each other for one thing or another, but they didn't have a choice. If the wanted to play they were kind of forced into the community. It was like moving into a new neighborhood. You got to know your neighbors and hoped when new neighbors moved in they weren't total dicks. Shit got big. Were talking 300 players at events big, and that wasn't everyone on AP. Teams had been around for as long as I could remember, but now there were a lot of teams, and team rivalries, Tensions run high and things in the community waver a bit. IN steps Dan (And this may be the one and only time I will refer to Dan as something similar to a hero, in the least hero-esk of ways but...) Dan starts slinging his APE Hate propaganda. And the entire community as a whole turns on him and his merry team of poor misguided fools. I love you Dan, and I remember sitting in Chopsticks bar with you at K-bar's birthday party as you explained your evil plan, and I worried that you were too smart for your own good. But the community had been united behind a common enemy. team rivalries fell by the wayside, as they started working together to crush Dan's PLA Team. And his team was good, they put up one hell of a fight. This went on for quite a while before PLA was reigned back in and their APE hate fell by the way side and the community that had gotten too big to sustain settled in for another few years of Airsoft.
However what happened next wasn't something we could have seen coming nor had any power over. Companies like JG and echo1 became a competitor and leveled the playing field. High end companies had to make sportline versions of their guns to keep up with JG, echo 1 and other such companies. The prices dropped on replicas, as well as a flooding of the market and suddenly airsoft became far more accessible to the public. This sudden intake of players caused a large groowth here on AP, a growth of players that weren't a custom to the AP community and had no way of knowing not to kick the sleeping dog cause she's willing to bite back.
This change in Airsoft does several things:
First, we begin to see players who are aren't as committed to airsoft as the players AP is accustom to having. They come stick around for a year or two and then leave. This means we have a constant revolving door of the same TYPE of new players. A revolving door of the same what gun should I get questions, the same I'm looking for a team thread followed a few months later by the same I'm going to start a new team threads. And because they aren't as invested in the sport they aren't as willing to be a part of the community either, especially a community that has been doing this for a while and has a way of weeding the strong from the... well ... annoying. So the community bites back.
Around this same time Facebook had gotten big and it began to be a hub for the players who were not interested in the AP way of things. So we see players begin to opt away from AP and into Facbook, or readit style boards where they somehow find it much easier and must more impersonal when people say rude stuff about them. Also it's way easier to find stupid people to agree with you when you surround yourself with people who only like what you like. :roll:
The second thing that the change in airsoft did was far more insidious and underlying. As the player population increased there was a greater market for fields and locations to play. Unfortunately there are no rules for field owners, they make them up as they go and if you don't like it, then you don't have to play there. So we see fields who host smaller games more often that attract a type of player. And those players continue to play at the same field and there becomes these pockets of players who have heard stories of the big bad AP, or maybe have experienced it themselves but they have no interest in becoming a part of the larger airsoft community, because they have their own little community.
The third thing that happened was the advent of HPA. For years Airsofters and Paintballers have disliked each other. Some paintballers joined airsoft and never looked back, a few guys play both, but even they will tell you how unsafe it is to talk about one with the other. One of the major differences between Airsoft and Paintball is in the attitude of the players. Paintballers are out for blood, where as most airsofters will tell you they don't go for head shots and they honor safety kills, they are out there for fun and not to make someone bleed. I don't know if the creator's of HPA tanks have them all cursed by a witch doctor, or what the deal is, but players who use HPS rigs come at airsoft with a whole different attitude. It's RPS down range, feathering their trigger, making their replicas as quiet as possible to make sure they can't be seen or heard. It's not Airsoft it's speed ball. It's not milsim, it's M4 SAW gunners. So we see SpeedSoft start to pop up, SpeedQB as some people are calling it these days. It's a different breed of airsoft, it's as different as Speedball VS WoodsBall in paintball terms. So you can no longer say "I play airsoft" and assume you are talking about the same sport. You have to specify what kind of airsoft your talking about. And players who play Speedsoft look down on Milsim guys like myself, just like Milsim guys looks down on guys who play SpeedSoft. It's another break in the community. different gun builds, different preferences. It's hard to run a board for airsoft if the two groups that make up airsoft can't get along.
So we end up here a disjointed community, and an airsoft community board who's old members recall the good old days and are too crusty to believe it could ever be that good again. A board who's stigma of being old, evil and outdated, is only true because people aren't trying anymore because they can only see the cracks in the community has and know that there isn't enough glue in the world to fix it.
This community will never be what it once was, because what it was, was made up by who was in it. May of those people have moved on from airsoft, and we cannot get back what once was, but that does not mean we can't try and rebuild into something different.
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Re: The Decline of AP.com

Postby Cruz FoxHound » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:31 am

Wow, Rentax. That's a lot of history that I was not privy to. Pretty awesome, actually -- like a legitimate airsoft folk history lesson. I feel like I just got sat down by the fire & told the truth, haha. Thanks for that.

Given all that inside info, I can totally understand how anyone could become jaded or tired or disappointed by these changes over time. It could all be potentially even more frustrating because of generation gap. If we're talking about any length of time more than five to six years, that can be a huge difference, let alone a full decade. The way younger people search for & process information now is completely different than it was that long ago, & even more so than when the old guard was the same age.

Reading over your story, it basically seems like AP.com was designed by/for that original crowd & it has since grown to be something significantly larger beyond the intent. The result at this point is like a clash of old & new where you (& some others), being part of that OG crowd, almost feel swarmed by new players who have a perspective of disposable culture. There is much more sentimentality in your eyes; a mutual respect for players that have been there & experienced the evolution. For the veterans of AP, the repetitive surface-level questions that new people ask as well as the high player turnover volume cheapen the history. It could also be the case that when I say, "community", it is an altogether separate group from what you may feel to be the real community. Am I on the right track?

Maybe I understand your perspective, maybe it's not even possible. What seems to be situation at this time is that the mods & AP veterans have the choice to modernize the site to some degree for the new generations or let it be as it is. Considering the duration of my tenure here in the context as you put it, it's pretty easy to understand Jester's earlier comments...

I guess it is what it is, guys. I was really hoping to find some inspiration & a few members here that would feel more optimistic about collaboration. I'm definitely not trying to hijack the AP world, but I will admit I am trying to produce positive momentum. Just because I see possibility doesn't mean it is the direction desired by all.
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Re: The Decline of AP.com

Postby Cruz FoxHound » Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:04 pm

Anyone who has new ideas, PM me sometime. Maybe we can organize something cool.
Last edited by Cruz FoxHound on Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Decline of AP.com

Postby McNair » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:34 pm

Also, what no one has mentioned but likely has a great effect:

Airsoft Pacific bleeding blows to use on a phone and now most of us just use our phones now.
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