Myth becomes reality

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Re: Myth becomes reality

Postby Tankwitch » Wed May 25, 2016 4:34 pm

Steve wrote:The real reason you are "tired of trying to reason with me" is that I actually apply reason and critical thinking. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated that you are either unable or unwilling to do so. You're probably a decent person in the real world. But online, you kind of come off like a useless douchebag.


I don't want to have this come to personal attacks but if your willing to troll, I will explain myself.
You attack my logic, but your critical reading skills are minimal at best. You've latched on to a single word "mold" and wrote an entire essay on machining. I found it interesting but not actually useful to the conversation. Thus the statement of technobabble. Technobabble is an old skill of using unrelated technical information in order of overwhelming another person so that they relent in a conversation. You have employed technobabble in order to cover up what little you knew about the model in question. Instead of asking questions that could be answered you launched into a tirade about what you don't like about some airsoft models. You have also cherry picked your information, but from your false position of moral superiority you can't see that you have also done this.

The critical question for you is if it has a metal gearbox. It does and on the first link I posted if you scroll down to the forth image you will see the gearbox in question which lo and behold has a metal shell. You keep comparing this to a PTW which has some of the problems that you complain about proprietary mags and parts. Both of these things are very common in ultra premium airsoft guns. To demand that airsoft guns only have a limited amount of mag and part styles is futile. TM spec stuff is only that because TM went out and made equipment and models that were unique to them and an industry was created. The industry TM clone industry was not created by the will of some Shinto gods. It takes time for models to become standard not the other way around. There was a time when TM was cutting edge and unproven.

You want answers without willing to be humble in asking a question. You wish to sound informed without being a luddite, but to me you have failed and reveled yourself to be against the march progress. No matter how little it is.

If you don't like it that's fine, but trying to demand prefect answers from me is impossible. As Zen teaches that the truth can not be taught.
I'm a major chairsofter, sorry about that.
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Re: Myth becomes reality

Postby Steve » Wed May 25, 2016 7:10 pm

Well, if I'm going to be accused of cherry-picking anyway, I might as well go whole-hog.

So, I'm going to break this down into a couple of responses. And I'm going to do my level best to avoid stepping on anybody's feelers.

1: Steve thinks that Systema AEGs are the end-all, be-all AEGs, and nobody else should try making nice things.
False.
I own a metric butt-ton of AEGs, a first-gen WE M-4 GBB, sniper rifles, grenade launchers, GBB pistols, and whatnot. Not one single solitary Systema. It should be pretty clear that if I wanted a Systema, I'd probably already own one. I don't much like the proprietary magazines, or the sole-source parts. I like options, I like the ability to customize it to survive my admittedly abusive play style. Absent winning the lottery or something, I don't plan on buying a Systema.


2: Steve doesn't have any idea about what he's talking about. Everything he types is technobabble.
Mostly false.
I'm most of the way through a degree in Mechanical Engineering. I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable about running tools as a hungover machinist on a bad day. I know a tiny fraction of the stuff my professors do, and I can be counted on to occasionally screw up some of the stuff I thought I knew. However, even I can look at all of the AEGs I've managed to break over the years and see that the same problems keep popping up in the same places. I can infer from my experiences, my recollection of lectures, and my ever-growing collection of ME textbooks why the problems occur, and can make educated guesses as to why they do.

With that out of the way, moving on:

3: Discussing the "Limited Edition", 300-unit run.
The article that was linked by the OP states that the first run of 300 units (priced at $2,500 USD) uses all CNC'd parts. My assumption is that these units will have metal gear boxes. Teaser photos support this. Yay. Hopefully, the gears and whatnot will not be CNC'd. Because CNC'd gears are not really that great, and there are better ways to make them, like wire cut, or even casting, assuming some final machining is done to the cast parts. CNC is, like, option number 5 or so of best ways to make gears.

EDIT:
The GBLS FAQ states that the gears are MIM (Metal Injection Molded). Oh. F***. No.

Take metal. Make it a powder. Add a plasticizer so you can injection mold it. Do so. Then take the finished part, stick it in an oven below the melting point of the metal until you burn out the plasticizer. Allow the part to cool. Use the part. Pray that your lattice of metal flakes that is shaped like a gear doesn't disintegrate under stress.

Cook it too hot, it's brittle and breaks. Cook it not hot enough, and it deforms, tears, and breaks. Cook it just right, and eventually it frags into pretty powder under stress just like the cast pot-metal gears in cheap AEGs. And it's a "when", not an "if".
END EDIT

We're going to leave any comments about "proprietary" and "IP" until later.

4: Hypothesizing about the theoretical "production" units.
The articles linked by the OP use a couple of key phrases that I have used to formulate assumptions about the materials used in the as--yet-unbuilt mass production units.

The first is the term "moulded". I've quoted the sentence as taken from the linked article:
While almost all the parts for the mass production gearbox version are moulded, the limited edition's ones are CNC-milled and assembled by Mr. Kim personally.


I've made the assumption that this sentence means that these parts will be made out of plastic. This assumption has been made because, in my limited experience, plastic and other similar materials are referred to as "molded", while metal materials are referred to as "cast". It's partly a cost thing, and partly a process thing. Casting metal usually uses expendable molds, and the process cost remains pretty constant regardless of the number produced. Injection molding plastic tends to be cheaper per unit when you do a lot of them, because the molds are reusable. You can injection-mold metal, but it's either stupidly expensive or you use MIM, which isn't, structurally, much better than plastic. It just looks pretty.

Simply put, molding metal is too expensive compared to other, better, faster processes. This is only not the case in very limited situations, and this ain't one of them. The guy who's making them says they'll be "moulded".

Engineering says that likely means "plastic" (or MIM, which isn't much better for the purpose at hand. Think: fancy name for "pot metal"). "Wishful thinking" on the part of the OP says they'll be made of metal.

5: A brief primer on IP protections
IP, or Intellectual Property, is protected under applicable law. But, here's the mindf**k: Owning the IP doesn't give you the right to make and sell your design. It gives you the right to keep other people from making and selling your design. Wait for it. Let it sink in. Yup. Your patent lets you take other people to court if they use your idea and don't pay you for it.

See, you can patent stuff that is pretty much useless on it's own. I can rip apart a HP inkjet printer, build a better ink delivery system, and patent the improvement. I can't necessarily turn around and start making printers based on the design, because I'd probably be violating a bunch of HP's IP rights. Once something ends up in the public domain, it's fair game to copy and use to your heart's content, however.

Practically, this means that while each company does stuff a little different on the inside of their magazines, the overall dimensions for the bits that feed BBs into the maw of the AEG are pretty identical. So brand "A"'s mags work with brand "B"'s AEGs. And they both use the same ammo.

Now, according to the linked article, GBLS is pretty set on protecting their IP.
DAS M4A1 is our own patented system, and pending PCT's registration. All the designs from GBLS will be patented before releasing. We are working with an experienced international patent agency to safeguard our intellectual property rights and prevent related dispute.


And, good for them. They did the design work, they deserve to profit from it. However, they have made the considered choice to use a proprietary magazine. This is bad for me, as a user. I feel that this was an unnecessary choice. For a discussion of why, refer to earlier posts.

6: Cost versus Value:
The GBLS web page lists the first, limited edition, production run as carrying a price tag of $2,500 USD. GBLS believes that they will find 300 people who will purchase this product at that price. It is my opinion that the limited information available does not demonstrate to me that the product will deliver value sufficient to offset the cost. Others may, and are in fact welcome to, disagree with me on this.

The mass-produced units are expected to run about 1/3 of the price. The parts that are CNC'd in the limited edition will supposedly be molded in the production run. Could be plastic, could be MIM. Either way, not a fan.

Again, for me, if I were to spend $2,500 USD on an AEG, I'd probably spend the money on tooling and materials and build better parts for existing AEGs. For that kind of money, I can get the tooling to do my own CNC'd gear boxes that won't crack and can contract out to a professional for case-hardened high-speed tool steel gears. Rather than using an existing brass inner barrel, I can design the appropriate connections and have a steel AR-15 barrel bored to 6.02 mm inner diameter. I can CNC a free-float RIS to have only the rail segments I need located exactly where I want them. For me, the value presented by the DAS does not match the cost of ownership of the limited production units. Your mileage may vary, your opinions may differ, and you are welcome to them.

7: How set in stone are your beliefs?
I am absolutely willing to reevaluate my beliefs once the product hits the market and usage data is available.
This Week In Airsoft wrote:This Week in Airsoft stands behind its statement... The internet and YouTube can be your teacher.

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Re: Myth becomes reality

Postby adrank888 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:44 am

thank you




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