DSG in GAT?

Discuss battery powered AEGs (Automatic Electric Guns) in this forum.

DSG in GAT?

Postby Damien » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:00 pm

I am still semi new to airsoft upgrades, but while looking around I learned about DSG's or Dual Selector Gears. I want to put one in my Echo 1 GAT, but what all do I need to upgrade to a DSG? Can I just slap in the DSG and put it back together or is there more I need to do/upgrade? Thanks for the help.
Damien
Cannon Fodder
Cannon Fodder
 
Team: N/A
Posts: 11
Age: 19
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 10:16 am
Location: Clackamas

Re: DSG in GAT?

Postby Metal4theking » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:58 am

Dual Sector Gears will double the rate of fire of your gun. Unless you play mostly indoors, or you are OK with being a bb-hosing scrub, I would advise not getting one installed. Although, I'm just a cynical and bitter person who wants my bb warz to be realistic and shit, so...do whatever you like man. Most people probably won't really care. I'll retreat to my safe space where I have Doritos and Mountain Dew if it starts to really bother me.

As far as your gun goes, Echo 1 might hold up for a while, but the doubled rate of fire will cut in half the time before something in your gun breaks.

P. S. If you play at WarsportNW events, where riflemen are limited to semi-auto, then a DSG won't do anything for you.
Metal4theking
Cannon Fodder
Cannon Fodder
 
Team: N/A
Posts: 25
Age: 22
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:34 am

Re: DSG in GAT?

Postby Damien » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:49 am

Thanks for the heads up on wearing down my gun. I never actually thought about that part, but I don't play at any WarsportNW events (Or at least haven't yet). I just saw a video of a Echo 1 GAT with a DSG that shot nasty fast, but it had many other upgrades in it and I was wondering if I could skip all the other upgrades. I know it will be a hose, but that is kind of what I want. I play at Action Acres and Polarstars are abundant some weekends, so this is just my way of battling those. The GAT also isn't my only gun (It's like me third gun to go to if the other two break) so it's not like every person I meet will fall victim to over spray.
Damien
Cannon Fodder
Cannon Fodder
 
Team: N/A
Posts: 11
Age: 19
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 10:16 am
Location: Clackamas

Re: DSG in GAT?

Postby Steve » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:12 pm

My understanding is imperfect. Worse yet, I have a half-baked understanding, wherein I may actually know LESS than I think I do, or may have things backwards. Part of this is my recollection of things as they were explained to me by the friendly and long-suffering tech who would bring my horribly-abused AEGs back from the deaths caused by my abuse.

The basic way an AEG works is that a battery powers a motor. The motor turns. The gear train shifts the force of the rotation 90 degrees, and increases the torque from the motor at the expense of speed (I think, but I'm too lazy to actually look at the gear ratios). The final sector gear has teeth along 1/4 of it's circumference. These teeth engage the teeth on the underside of the piston, shoving it rearward. This rearward motion is resisted by the spring.

Once the sector gear rotates far enough to clear the piston, the spring shoves the piston back forward. The piston compresses air, and that compressed air shoves the bb out the barrel. The problem with the DSG is that instead of having 3/4 of the circumference having no teeth, it's closer to 1/4 with teeth, 1/4 clear, 1/4 with teeth, 1/4 clear. So, your piston has 1/3 of the time to slam forward than it used to.

So, to improve reliability, you:
A) Install a stiffer spring. The stiffer spring slams the piston forward faster, getting it in position to start the cycle again in time. But, the stiffer spring also compresses the same amount of air in less time, so the pressure goes up and your FPS climbs. You wear out your gear box more quickly, and may have to cut teeth off the piston or off the DSG to let it cycle properly.

B) Swiss-cheese your piston to reduce the mass, so that the spring can throw it forward faster. Again, you can end up with parts wearing out or breaking faster, since putting holes in stuff generally doesn't make it last longer (holes serve as stress concentrators; fatigue loading from mass imbalances; slamming a lighter piston forward into the end of the gear box harder, etc.)

And then you end up looking at short-stroking the piston, boring up the cylinder, and installing a heavier spring to fix your cycle times. Toss in a MOSFET system to do active braking for your motor for solid semi-auto fire and faster initial shots. Switch to higher-voltage lipo batteries with higher discharge (C) values.

The problem with chasing high ROF setups is that it is like taking a Honda Civic and turning it into a drag car. You can totally do it if you throw money at it. But you'll pay through the nose, and you'll break stuff at a fairly insane rate. Or at least I always did. Back when I played indoors regularly, I'd end up dumping around 1500 rounds or so in seven minutes on semi-auto. By the end of the game, the motor would be so hot that you could feel it through the pistol grip through gloves. I'd sit out for a game, run a different AEG for the next game, sit out one more, and the first AEG would be cool enough to swap lipo batteries in and run for another game. I'd generally break an AEG to the point of needing a rebuild every month or two, so figure a life cycle of 9 to 18 games per gun. On a really bad day, I managed to kill three guns in one visit. Realistically, between BBs and repairs it was costing me around $25 a game, plus the cost of admission.

I've heard that you can get insane ROFs with a PolarStar system. Personally, I know me. I'd end up with a separate set of identically expensive issues if I went that route.
This Week In Airsoft wrote:This Week in Airsoft stands behind its statement... The internet and YouTube can be your teacher.

Image
Steve
Specops
Specops
 
Team: N/A
Posts: 2155
Age: 39
Images: 2
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:01 am
Location: Beaverton, OR

Re: DSG in GAT?

Postby Blackhawk » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:12 am

Good explanation Steve, just one thing to add. With dual sector gears you don't get a full draw on the piston either so your fps is cut in half. That is the other reason you put in the stiffer spring.
User avatar
Blackhawk
Cannon Fodder
Cannon Fodder
 
Team: N/A
Posts: 72
Age: 34
Images: 3
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:01 pm
Location: Hillsboro

Re: DSG in GAT?

Postby toobladink » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:36 pm

You can probably do it. The problem you'll likely run into is feeding.

I don't know how well the mags feed, but you can always get maple leaf mag springs for them. You can also have a relatively slow DSG, and build something much more reliable and even more efficient than a standard build.

Because the barrel is so short, you won't run into many problems with little volume in the cylinder.

Here's what I would do if I were you:

Standard tuning, and lots of it. It should be done well. Radius the gearbox shell, install a mosfet, correct the AOE, shim, clean it thoroughly, and whatever else you can think of.

Then, I would go ahead and install the DSG and tune the parts for that. Cut the tappet plate, cut some coils off the tappet spring, and make sure everything else is strong enough. I would also swiss cheese the piston and short stroke the piston.

For your parts list, here's what I recommend. It'll be at about under $100 in parts.

SHS DSG
SHS Piston
Guarder SP150 (for under 350 FPS)
SHS bushings
MOSFET (Like a nukefet or hulkfet)
A motor with strong magnets. This is the most expensive part, so you can either go all out and spend $75 on one or $30 on one. I recommend Action Army motors.

You might also need the following if they aren't in your gun already:
Ball bearing spring guide
Steel gears. Like, really nice and strong steel gears.
toobladink
Cannon Fodder
Cannon Fodder
 
Team: N/A
Posts: 15
Age: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:15 pm

Re: DSG in GAT?

Postby Damien » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:45 am

Thanks for all the tips. At the moment I am going a different route with the GAT. Wanted a higher ROF but felt like what I have already is fine for the time being. Might buy a whole other GAT later down the road just for a DSG build but for the time being this is a back of the book idea, that I still want to happen. At the moment I am swapping in a different motor, extending the barrel (Just a bit) and adding rails to the top of it. After I get it all slapped together I will post pictures. The DSG GAT is still going to happen, just not yet.
Damien
Cannon Fodder
Cannon Fodder
 
Team: N/A
Posts: 11
Age: 19
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 10:16 am
Location: Clackamas


Return to AEG/Electrics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests