League Membership / Card Voucher System

[john boy]

Yeah, still don't want a league and I really don't need a bunch of team captains telling me what rules to have at my games.

At least you mind hasn't been persuaded, even after 3 to 4 years.
What do you suggest?

[sounguru]

So after reading all 8 pages of this I have a question what will be the check and balances?

An example would be:

Jack Squat personally hates my guts so Jack decides to report me for not calling hits even though it is not true. Now I have a demerit and my rank goes down so and the same thing is repeated and so on until I look like total flake. Now there is no truth to this but it is something that can happen. Or in the reverse I like Jack Squat because we are drinking buddies and so what if he doesn't call his hits I still rank him up because he is a good party guy.

How will things like that be controlled?

A suggestion that has worked real well for us up here is hidden Cadres. They are trusted and experienced players that are on the field playing right along side of you, but after the game they submit a report of what they saw. These reports are data based and are then compared over a period of time. Chances of one person reporting another out of hate goes way down and people have a tendency to play in a more honest manner if they don't know who is watching.

Now take that a step further and ....

The names of the Cadres is not known to anyone but the event organizer and are chosen by the event organizer that way the Cadres are changing in and out with each event, it gives you a pretty good idea of what is really going on. Also the event organizer can let the Cadres know before a game if XXXX has begun to show a pattern so they can keep an eye on him/her and see if they are improving or verify the reports. Now this could be reported to a central local and the event organizer ask for the latest update before his event to see if he needs to watch anyone on his field. So when a report is logged to the central local the event organizer removes all of the Cadres names.

Once a person has been reported (by different Cadres or at different events) 3 times they are issued a warning, 4 times and they are on an X # of months suspension, 6 and they are banned from future events.

Now this would also need to be only given out to trusted event organizers because you would not want the list getting out and starting a major tissy fit.

Still not the best but seems to me like the simplest option and could be a system that is used in more than just Oregon and adopted by other event organizers.

[Matt]

sounguru - doesn't matter what jack thinks. Your reputation isn't changed by your peers, it's changed by your event host. Say somebody complains about a player, the event host sends an admin to look into it. The admin sees that this person is obviously cheating. There's a demerit, handed out by the event host, not the player who reported you.

If anybody could hand these out, it would be a total dramatic shit-storm.

[sounguru]

sounguru - doesn't matter what jack thinks. Your reputation isn't changed by your peers, it's changed by your event host. Say somebody complains about a player, the event host sends an admin to look into it. The admin sees that this person is obviously cheating. There's a demerit, handed out by the event host, not the player who reported you.

If anybody could hand these out, it would be a total dramatic shit-storm.

What if Jack is that event host? There are people I don't care for that play at my events but do play fairly so I still let them play.

Basically I don't think you are gonna find a solution to this issue in any form... Don't get me wrong I would love to see a national organization and standardization to our sport but being a sport of honor it is hard to do. Compound that by all the different rules sets and it just gets even more difficult.

[Matt]

What if the guy who works at Starbucks hates you and spits in your coffee? I guess you don't go to that Starbucks then.

You also have to remember that by writing these people up, the event host is directly effecting their bottom line. That could be one less paying customer for the next OP they host. They don't want to carelessly throw around demerits and lose their customers.

[sounguru]

What if the guy who works at Starbucks hates you and spits in your coffee? I guess you don't go to that Starbucks then.

True that if I knew the guy was spitting in my coffee, but what if I don't know. Just playing devils advocate here but Jack puts on the coolest events and I like going to them but he demerits me every time I show up because I like to wear pink fuzzy slippers. So now every time I go to Jack's event (and he holds them more often than anyone else), he demerits me and suddenly it starts getting harder to go to any events because of one persons point of view.

I don't think one less paying player is gonna effect someones personal view.

I think the over all concept is sound but would like to see a little more check and balances.

[Matt]

That's a good point. I'd like to think everyone is too professional to do that. But realistically, yeah it would happen.

[sounguru]

That's a good point. I'd like to think everyone is too professional to do that. But realistically, yeah it would happen.

I would add the caveat that they have to be reported x number of times at different events before a demerit is given. That way you are getting 2 or more people reporting the same thing. Now if that person only attends one persons event at the exclusion of all others then that event organizer can take matters into their own hands. Make it the same rule before a merit is given and you have a check and balance system.

So the player is in a way at fault because he chooses to only attend that persons events and they have a bad hate for the pink slippers.

I still think hidden Cadres work wonders too...

[Wombat Six]

I don't have the wherewithal to wade through 8 pages of posts, so forgive me if the comments below have already been made:

If you want a certain crowd at an event, make it an invite-only or approval-required event and be prepared to deal with the pages of "Can I come?" messages. Open events, especially in a game of honor, and certainly where there is a "winner", are going to get the "How far can I bend the rules?" crowd. Hell, even open events can reject players. I think the "sponsorship" idea has some merit...want to come to a game, get someone on the "approved" list to sponsor, after a few games where you aren't a total fuckup, you can attend without having to get a sponsor, and after sufficient time, you can sponsor people. It won't work for large-scale events without some serious grandfathering, but it's a thought.

I'm not sure a "league" is going to stop the hax unless there's some way to validate membership at the event, even if it's just a simple laminated card (prone to its own hacking issues) - show your card, you get in. I can only easily identify about 10 folks on AP. Having managed a volunteer organization with 170 people, it's impossible to keep the entire roster in your head at the event, so how do you know that this person standing in front of you is really Combat Wombat and not some little punk who knows Combat Wombat is an alright guy that the game host will allow to play?

A reporting system on AP is only going to keep people from registering for events if they've done enough "bad stuff" to warrant a demerit. That being said, who handles the reporting? Unless the number of admins at a game grows in some fashion, how is the event host going to stay on top of the problem and screen the "actually breaking the rules" from the "blissfully unaware". Personally, I'd rather see more admins, but less orange safety vests. Give them a little black velcro patch that says "ADMIN" they can stick on their sleeve, feed them, and you'll have happy admins. The notion being that invisible admins are much more likely to catch that idiot who keeps hacking with a dead rag than the admin wearing the bright orange safety vest. Sure, they'll get shot at a little more, but such is life at an airsoft game.

The merits/demerits thing has interest, but it only works if you're rewarding meritous behavior and not just giving everyone a point every time they attend an event. In my eyes, the "ideal" number of points for a player is zero. If you're above that, you rock, if you're below that, the game host might consider your request to play more carefully. A certain number of negative points, you're drummed out of the hobby locally. But, as mentioned above: what's to keep that jackass who hates me from demeriting me because I wear a chest panel and not an IBV.

As far as costs, if the value is behind it, I'm okay with a membership fee to join a "private club". I just spent $600 in the last 3 months on airsoft stuff, so I'm really not going to notice the "membership fee". Group buys, forum privileges, private game invites, free swag, whatever it is, there'd better be some value behind the exclusive membership that I'm not getting by being just another forum member.

[Nocte]

I think a positive-only system is better than "demerits." If drastic punishment is needed, the count can be deducted or reset to zero by [I don't know who - certainly not any single person].

The regulars with higher positive scores will probably have a higher rank than the recent flood of new douchebags I've seen at the few games I've been to lately.

[Catch22]

a whole bunch of stuff.

I don't have the wherewithal to wade through your ginormous post. So please forive me, if I ignore it all together.


We need THE AP WALL OF SHAME Admin take a picture of hax and undesirable and we post them here.
Start with Myrick

Edit: also the best way to get away from orange vested admin is to do what we did at Cypriot Ridge.... Desert camo and red hats. Didn't detract from the game atmosphere but did stand out. We also weren't afraid to confront players.

[shakespeare]

I hear a lot of interesting ideas being put on the table.
However, what I am wondering is: how will theses systems affect those who rarely attend core AP games (northern Oregon games)?
My team attends one or two AP games a year, if we are lucky, as we live in Southern Oregon. There are organized games down here, big skirmishes and even some OPs, however, I don't think they are organized as AP games further than posting to the events page.

If we(my team) had to pay 25$ extra per year to attend one or two OPs up north, on top of 15$ for bio BB's, on top of 30$ in field fees, on top of 10$ in food, on top of 20$ in gas (if we carpool) then suddenly our costs are getting dangerously close to 100$ per game.
If we see this sort of system happening, I think that you will see a dramatic drop in attendance from southern Oregon and any other areas.

Personally, I think a free system where all players have an AP account (or some sort of universal file), and then event planners, managers, admins (or whoever the profits from OPs go to) can "yellow card" or "red card" people who were caught purposely not calling hits, etc. Yellow (probation) for minor offenses (not calling hits once, accidentally lighting someone up due to lack of carefulness) or red(temporary/permanent? ban) for severe offenses (lighting someone up out of malice, making threats, etc). There would also have to be an appeal system to allow for comfort in trying to make amends or to check faulty admin judgement. I think that the event planner would be the best person for this job because, A. they are making a profit from the event and thus can afford a few minutes to mark the malefactors from a game, and B. they will be fair because they understand the profit vs. dangerous, detractive behavior and C. it is not too much work because only a few people would be marked down.

[Chachi]

Just a quick question....What happens to the average player in the point/merit/demerit system? For example, I have been playing a year, and have attended virtually all the large Ops and a few smaller ones. I don't hack, I try hard, get some kills, and also die my fair share. But all in all, I am relatively new and most likely am not a stand out in anyone's eyes. I am working on becoming that, but for now I would say I am average. Do I earn points for being average? Are the points really just given to the superstars (good) or the realtree hacks (bad) only? I can't help but think in all of this about myself. Maybe a dumb question, but I was just thinking about the average joe.

[Catch22]

From now on my games are only for people that have 5 stars above thier avatar. except sleepy If you don't have 5 stars don't bother coming


all sarcasm

[dos_Santos]

I think Matt is on the right track. There are a lot of other uses for monies too. For instance, ADMIN training. I am talking about a small class or likeness thereof that people can take if they want to be an admin in the hypothetical "APL." Right now the administration is kind of disjointed, and funds generated from players card's fees will help pay for the class and/or pay for administrating in a game. A ref in the soccer leagues gets paid about $14-$16 per game they ref (and they usually ref about 4-5 games). This is one example of how funds generated can help the over-all player experience by having a standardized administration at a game. Having standardized admin's at games would be a plus for me because they end up being the bane of my experience more than hackers/cheaters.

I would be MORE than excited to get the ball rolling on this, it's not that difficult to do. It's not for monetary gain, but user experience. The financials could be 100% transparent if someone had issue with something.

If there are those who are to far away but want to play anyways, there would be a slightly higher fee to play the game (someone noted earlier). I previously mentioned about my involvement in mountain bike racing; NORBA did this, OBRA does this now and it helps those who only get out once or twice a year to play. No big deal.

A league is about a standardization that AP has already done to a certain extent. I don't mind the skeptics or naysayers, as maybe they provide some sort of balance. But a league for us would ALWAYS be about the spirit of the game/sport/hobby and never about the letter of the law.