No-Shows

[Matt]

I'm just curious. What exactly is the big deal with no-shows. For these massive clusterfuck "big OPs" -- can't you just guesstimate how many people will show up to a game and how many will flake out? For me, this has been easy. There has only been a couple times when I've either been in trouble of financial loss or had to seriously change game-play because of no-shows. The rest of the time I get a 90% attendance rate and sometimes there's even people who didn't sign up who offset that number.

If we were serious about registration, everyone would pre-pay. Right? But some people don't want a pre-pay system, because they'd be worried that the game may not happen and they might not get their money back. But if they're worried about that then they don't take the game seriously to begin with, so why are we surprised when they don't show up?

So what is the solution? I don't think threatening to ban no-shows or put them on a "naughty list" is the answer. Like everything else, eventually it's going to be dropped or ignored. Exceptions will be made for some people but not others. Drama will ensue. There's got to be a better way.

[Nocte]

I agree with Matt. Many of us have backed out of a game at the last minute, and not being able to register for another game because real-life took precedent seems pretty heavy-handed. I slept through Infidel Bash 2010 because Raddue and Kendo got me hammered at my birthday party the night before. I backed out of the first Coffee Angels the night before because I just didn't feel like playing airsoft that weekend. At the same time, I don't want to have to justify why I didn't show up to a game every time it happens (which, is fairly rare for me - if I say I'll be there, I typically show up).

If event promoters are fronting a ton of costs like food for lunch (to use Bloodlines as an example), and relying on a very high percentage of attendees to break even financially, perhaps it's a better idea for them to control what they absolutely can, and not buy everyone lunch. It's understandable that footing the bill for 79 hamburgers is frustrating, but it's not necessarily the players fault for you taking the risk of purchasing them in the first place.

Let's remember that this is a hobby, not a job. When a player says he'll be there, there's no contractual agreement that forces him to attend so your numbers are met. If your game is exciting enough to the masses, you'll probably make the numbers you need. There are no 100% turnouts, and you can't really pursue a course of action against those who back out without potentially turning away players from your next game(s).

[Riddick]

Nobody says that you have to justify that you are not going to be there. It can be as simple as "I won't be attending" or "I've decided to not go".

Real world events can prevent your attendance and I understand. I understand the reasoning behind just decided against not going. All I was asking for is to let me know that you won't be there if you've changed your mind.

If you can take 20 seconds to post something saying you will be there, than whats another 20 saying that you won't.

This isn't about money, this isn't about attendance, it's about courtesy.

You want to put all the responsibility onto us as the event host but yet when we ask for such a small amount of responsibility back by US or me asking just let us know your not coming then it's OMG I can't believe you ask that. Seems one sided to me. What ever happened to personal accountability.

[Ivan Daylovich™]

What if something comes up the morning of?
How does me posting at 8am about my attendance help you?

[Riddick]

What if something comes up the morning of?
How does me posting at 8am about my attendance help you?

That's my point. It's not about what it does. It's about courtesy.

I've felt this way for a long time. As a player, as a admin for a game, as a event host.

Yeah maybe the blacklist was over the top but I just wanted it to be taken seriously.

It doesn't suprise me when people get annoyed when we ask for personal accountability no matter how big or small the issue is. Heck I saw it all the time at the bank when people bounced checks. It was always the banks fault and not the persons. I get it. Society struggles with it. I don't think what I asked for was ridiculous and I still stand behind it. I don't even see what the fuss is considering this is so far a one mans crusade with a little support.

I even made it a little less aggressive now. I won't post it up on AP but I will provide it to any event host that requests it.

[Juicemachine]

I like the idea of having a code-pink meter on everyone's profile.

[DJ]

I'm just curious. What exactly is the big deal with no-shows. For these massive clusterfuck "big OPs" -- can't you just guesstimate how many people will show up to a game and how many will flake out? For me, this has been easy. There has only been a couple times when I've either been in trouble of financial loss or had to seriously change game-play because of no-shows. The rest of the time I get a 90% attendance rate and sometimes there's even people who didn't sign up who offset that number.

If we were serious about registration, everyone would pre-pay. Right? But some people don't want a pre-pay system, because they'd be worried that the game may not happen and they might not get their money back. But if they're worried about that then they don't take the game seriously to begin with, so why are we surprised when they don't show up?

So what is the solution? I don't think threatening to ban no-shows or put them on a "naughty list" is the answer. Like everything else, eventually it's going to be dropped or ignored. Exceptions will be made for some people but not others. Drama will ensue. There's got to be a better way.

First off, I am not an event organizer. Let me speak to some of the concerns expressed by Rick et al. At a recent event I assisted in the food acquisition & preparation Food was purchased based on what the expected attendance was. At the event there was a 30% + no show. A lot of food and other items were purchased based on the expected attendance. The money could have been spent on other things. I suspect that this is part of the frustration that organizers are incurring. Lots of planning., time and money goes into the event then people just don't show for whatever reason without notice. Am I wrong here?

[Riddick]

No show= players who sign up and do not show up and do not cancel their reservation.


For me. For this event no shows will not effect food since I am not providing it however like i have said it's a courtesy. After holy wars when about 80 people no showed, I said to myself this is ridiculous. Can these people not let ashton or ben know they were not coming or maybe at least 50% of them could.

It takes seconds to post your coming, it takes the same to say your not. My whole angle goes for personal accountability something that is lacking when signing up for games and then no showing and I would like to see the amount of it happening come way down.

What I asked for is not crazy or ridiculous but OMG should I have done it

[pulsipher]

Ive hosted all of 3 games here so far and my experience with attendance is thus

If its not a prepay its a cluster-fuck.

Really its about accountability for rick and I understand exactly where hes coming from. At a portion of events there is money set aside for food. Its not a necessity but it does provide a nice break mid-game. When you plan on a certain number of people and less show up thats harder on your budget. BUT on the other hand this could be overcome by folks doing better accounting at registration. since often the food is bought after the game begins.

Now as a basis of creating a blacklist i see the point thats being made. that we are hobbyists not professionals; it becomes abundantly clear though that just as much effort can be given to announce not attending a game after you

All in all while banning is a harsh way to look at attendance issues it can just as easily be solved with a prepay only system.

Post Script In my mind if i prepay for a game I'm looking for more effort on promoters than what traditionally has been shown

[Riddick]

Pre-Pay is most likely the right solution. If more of us begin to use it then it would become the norm.

I guess for me that's the next step for the next event. It's a little for us on this one now.

But again I never said the words "Banned"

[Zeta Crossfire]

From what's been said the fear of pre-pay is that if the promoter cancels there's a chance that players won't get there money back, but what if players pre pay not to the promoter, but to a trusted 3rd party AP member someone like matt or someone else? Still might have it's share of problems like the 3rd party guy running off with the money, but its an idea.

[Jester316]

Keep a list of no shows. If they repeatedly don't show up without saying they can't make it, then add them to a "watch" type list. Singling out 1 person for 1 game doesn't mean jack shit. It's the habitual offenders that become a pain.


Also +10000^99 to

In my mind if i prepay for a game I'm looking for more effort on promoters than what traditionally has been shown

[Riddick]

From what's been said the fear of pre-pay is that if the promoter cancels there's a chance that players won't get there money back, but what if players pre pay not to the promoter, but to a trusted 3rd party AP member someone like matt or someone else? Still might have it's share of problems like the 3rd party guy running off with the money, but its an idea.

you have to take into account who is hosting. How many have I cancelled that I've hosted? Zero.

PayPal does have a claim system while still flawed plus you ahve credit card protection as well.

I would pre-pay with most of the current crop of people doing event hosting as of now

[Nocte]

It doesn't surprise me when people get annoyed when we ask for personal accountability no matter how big or small the issue is. Heck I saw it all the time at the bank when people bounced checks. It was always the banks fault and not the persons.

This can go both ways, though. If an event promoter assumes financial risks when planning a game, it suddenly becomes the players' fault (in regards to attendance) for them not making their money back, instead of their judgment on how much to spend.

Example: I spent a couple hundred dollars to paint the windows black at CAGE before Nephilim III because I wanted the whole building as dark as I could get it. (It took two coats of primer and two coats of black to get it as dark as you all remember it). It wasn't necessary for the game to happen, but I wanted the atmosphere, so I justified it. If I had come up short on revenue from that game, I would have blamed myself for spending so much money on paint instead of blaming the no-shows for not coming.

[Matt]

The process is flawed. What do we consider a registered attendee? A kid on a forum who replies and says "I'll be there," who's profile says his real name is Seymor Butts? You can't really base decisions on buying food for a large group of people on data like that. I am sorry to see event hosts get burned, but unfortunately they made a mistake.

What about contingency plans for excess amounts of food? Donate it? Freeze it for next time? Is a COSTCO package of hot dogs even worth crying over? I have a hard time feeling bad about the food thing. But I do understand that it really sucks when you try to build squads and setup a mil-sim event and half the people don't show up. Or worse, the majority of 1 side of your OP doesn't show up so you have to change your whole game on the fly to make it fair... or move people. That sucks.