the IAR ( Infantry Automatic Rifle)

[Dees]

I agree with Gunny.

[KA-BAR]

@childs...

yea, this is USMC born, and i bet you my bottom dollar the fact that it has the Eagle, Globe and anchor logo on it's reciver certifies this as a " to be fielded platform" by leathernecks.

and being as Keith and I envisioned our team ATAC as a MARSOC/USMC CQC/MOUT fireteam, you can bet that this would be my optimal choice for a MG position in my stack.


@ Dees...
yea i guess you must have some experience to make some of the assumtions/judgements you have made on the platform. some may even be valid. i just dont agree with ya.


i think its a bad a$$ concept. i like it alot. i am including it as part of my kit based on that alone, iregardless of how it is viewed. now does this mean i am showing up to every game with a box magged platform, HELL NO!...

will i be investing in some mid caps and trying to persued the powers that be that there are platform choices and options that are not being fully explored HELL YEA I AM.

shotguns: we all have to have bluegrips, or blue barrels for Less Leathal option in our current CQC simulations. well in the real world....duty shotguns are a standard 870....its the ROUND that determines the lethality. i can load a lock breaker for breaching, i can load 00buckshot for manstopping....or i can plug in a slug to punch through a hard target, or i can get the new XREM round that turns the shotgun into a tazer gun that has a 200 yard range, with no wires attached to the weapon ready to fire another round.... or i can..... so you see the list goes on to a basic platforms tactical useage based on the rounds it fires alone. so if my stack leader calls " i need a less leathal option!", by the time he says " option" i should be loading my color coded shell racking the slide ...looking the perp in the face...shouting "less leathal" and blasting them in the chest!...this is just as effective as haveing the actor have to see a blue barrel or grip on a platform to recognise that the stack is preforming a less leathal option upon them. id like to see it changes so that i can better use my shotgun to preform diffrent duties....just like i would in real life. train like you fight, fight like you train right?


as for the IAR, i think that if a stack is doing a certain impression of a particular real world soldier, and they find and can prove of the validity of thier gear choices, that certain concessions could be made.

say i was the main saw gunner in a USMC based team, and i saw this and said, " i want to build a close representation of this platform and run it as it would be run in the field." and made the decision to drop the heavey M249 and the nut sack and all the bags of ammo... and wanted to cut it down to a IAR and any where from 250-400 rounds total ( split into say 3 or 4 mid caps) and allow that to represent that squad or fireteams particular MG gunner. i think that is completely acceptable and totally within the realms of what milsim is....and our competitions are all about.


joking about box magged M4's was just me being KA-BAR and nothing else, i have no intentions of tainting my gameplay in this fashion. if i had such a desire you would have seen or heard about it long long before this.


@ gunny...

i am listening. id like to hear more.

positions in the stack/fireteam are no longer "static"...there is a fluidity added into the mix, when this occurs, too much thought and hesitation is spent on where the SAW is and is not. this platform eliviates that.

more mobility, lighter weight, less cumbersome in tight spaces....everything a MG gunner wants. less weight means i can carry more ammo in the real world....which is your #1 priority as a MG gunner, providing fire support.




morgan

[Thompson]

Morgan,


This I must add: Actively fielded less than lethal weapons platforms MUST be MARKED a non-standard color as per FEDERAL LAW. BPD LTL shotguns have BLAZE orange furniture. Tazers are DAYGLOW yellow.


Its a liability if it is not marked. Sorry.

[KA-BAR]

@ postie...

is that for law enforcement only? are the millitary held to those laws during war time?

so in a LE senario....must be marked?
what about MOUT?

i post these questions to make you think, or show me your rational path to how you come to your decisions.

[Dees]

@ Dees...
yea i guess you must have some experience to make some of the assumtions/judgements you have made on the platform. some may even be valid. i just dont agree with ya.

Yep, spent a lot of time carrying SAW/LMGs actually, and since you don't know much about me, here is a little of my background;
6 years as a 19D1P, which is a Cavalry Scout, Airborne qualified. I spent the entire time in "Light Cav" units, where the only thing light was the amount of time off we got, LOL.
I also spent the entire time carrying an M60 or an M249 Mk.I, as well as being issued an M16/M203m earning 5 Army Achievement Medals for marksmanship and setting multiple battalion, brigade, division and post records at Baumholder, Germany while assigned to the 4/12th Inf. Scout Plt. Served as a my last year in the Army as a unit armorer after my knee injuries from a parachute accident finally got bad enough that I couldn't be a Scout anymore, then got a medical out, otherwise I would still be in.

i think its a bad a$$ concept. i like it alot. i am including it as part of my kit based on that alone, iregardless of how it is viewed. now does this mean i am showing up to every game with a box magged platform, HELL NO!...

I think it is a good concept, and it isn't in its infancy, but is still only a "toddler", as many of the points Gunny and I pointed out are large deciding factors on whether it gets adopted in wide spread use or not.
Glad to hear you are skipping the box mag and going with a more realistic load out, but I still wouldn't mind Beta "C" mags if they were limited to 250 rounds or less in airsoft, but still were the same size. I think people going for more realism would be interested, and it would also show people how impractical they are in active application (other the the mechanical problems they have, which Gunny and I also noted).

will i be investing in some mid caps and trying to pursued the powers that be that there are platform choices and options that are not being fully explored HELL YEA I AM.

I use 8-12 midcaps myself, mainly in larger events, because I don't like the rattle of a hicap. Guess the rules down there are a bit different then ours.

shotguns: we all have to have blue grips, or blue barrels for Less Lethal option in our current CQC simulations. well in the real world....duty shotguns are a standard 870....its the ROUND that determines the lethality. i can load a lock breaker for breaching, i can load 00buckshot for man stopping....or i can plug in a slug to punch through a hard target, or i can get the new XREM round that turns the shotgun into a tazer gun that has a 200 yard range, with no wires attached to the weapon ready to fire another round.... or i can..... so you see the list goes on to a basic platforms tactical usage based on the rounds it fires alone. so if my stack leader calls " i need a less lethal option!", by the time he says " option" i should be loading my color coded shell racking the slide ...looking the perp in the face...shouting "less lethal" and blasting them in the chest!...this is just as effective as having the actor have to see a blue barrel or grip on a platform to recognize that the stack is preforming a less lethal option upon them. id like to see it changes so that i can better use my shotgun to preform different duties....just like i would in real life. train like you fight, fight like you train right?

Again, guess you guys do a lot more CQC then we do, but some of what you said is fairly close to wide spread LEO use. I help out with LEO active shooter training periodically, and my experience with them using less lethal is pretty small, since it is active shooter training, so they are expecting and prepared for an armed response.
Also, there has yet to come out an airsoft shotgun that really does what a real one can. Until then, I will just use mine for field games, since an 8mm shooting 3x 0.34g BBs at 270fps is a little more powerful then polite in any other environment.

as for the IAR, i think that if a stack is doing a certain impression of a particular real world soldier, and they find and can prove of the validity of their gear choices, that certain concessions could be made.

Again, I don't see an argument here, since it is personal preference on weapons, but I can see people that DON'T know about the IAR wanting a little explanation on it before allowing it, and I doubt that they will allow an entire squad armed with them.

say i was the main saw gunner in a USMC based team, and i saw this and said, " i want to build a close representation of this platform and run it as it would be run in the field." and made the decision to drop the heavy M249 and the nut sack and all the bags of ammo... and wanted to cut it down to a IAR and any where from 250-400 rounds total ( split into say 3 or 4 mid caps) and allow that to represent that squad or fire teams particular MG gunner. i think that is completely acceptable and totally within the realms of what milsim is....and our competitions are all about.

Again, same statement as above.

joking about box magged M4's was just me being KA-BAR and nothing else, i have no intentions of tainting my game play in this fashion. if i had such a desire you would have seen or heard about it long long before this.
morgan

I actually don't remember what the joke was at this point, but in certain games I don't see a problem with them, especially for teams or players that cannot afford a regular SAW/LMG type weapon, but I see where Killbucket's Shrike kit will gain some popularity in that role.

positions in the stack/fire team are no longer "static"...there is a fluidity added into the mix, when this occurs, too much thought and hesitation is spent on where the SAW is and is not. this platform alleviates that.

That is why a typical breaching team in the Army is all M4s, unless there is a special purpose behind taking a SAW into a building or team security requires that ALL members of the squad/fire team enter.

more mobility, lighter weight, less cumbersome in tight spaces....everything a MG gunner wants. less weight means i can carry more ammo in the real world....which is your #1 priority as a MG gunner, providing fire support.

Actually, the main precepts behind a SAW/LMG gunner's role is CONTROLLED, high volume, SUSTAINED fire, which a box magazine has a hard time keeping up with compared to a belt fed weapon and an even partially experienced gunner. A lighter weight weapon typically means more recoil, a smaller caliber means less range, a box mag of 30-40 means you will have a hell of a time feeding the beast for anything approaching sustained fire.
Again, IAR isn't a bad concept, just too early for adoption. I personally think the Ultimax would be a better weapon for the role, especially since it takes belts, drums and STANAG mags, has a quick change barrel assembly and can be semi modular for mission adaptability. A better solution to me would be the ARES Shrike, since it also has the advantage of commonality of parts with the regular issue rifle/carbine, while maintaining the belt feed option and magazine option.


Gunny, nice to see you around again, you old cuss, been a long time since I saw you and was wondering what happened to ya!

[KA-BAR]

@Dees...

sorry if that sounded disrespectful. i have never met ya personaly, or if i have i just dont know it ( you have probably shot me at a game!) are you the guy making the custom barrels everyone is raving about?

as for your comment on an entire squad fielding these, i dont even presume to suggest that. in a 8-12 man fire team you will have atleast 2-3 SAW's. 1 per 4 man fireteam. my stack would be at max 8man.
i dont want to buy a SAW to have a MG option. with the IAR i now have the options i need.

[Nocte]

@Dees...

are you the guy making the custom barrels everyone is raving about?

That's the guy.

[Martin.]

i think it looks like what would happen if Magpul, Colt, and H&K had an orgy.

[Dees]

Didn't perceive any, just figured it was a "you don't know me, I don't know you" kind of thing, and I am the VP for DB Custom, yes.
When it comes to fire teams, you are talking about a heavy squad if there are 2-3 SAW/LMGs in it, but in most conventional units you will find 1-2 SAW and 1 LMG per squad, the difference being the calibers. I would personally LOVE to see a squad full of people that can all perform rifleman, SAW and grenadier duties all at once (no such thing as too much firepower), but in airsoft I can see there wanting to be limitations on things like this. I have grown to the point that I hate to see box mags on the field, but mainly because they tend to be a crutch for newer players or get used a LOT by people who don't really use or train in tactics much. I do think that box mags have a place in airsoft, and one or two in a squad as SAW type weapons isn't a bad plan, but it bothers me when I see every other guy on a team using them as their primary. Call it a pet peeve, I just like to see them on replicas of belt feeds, but then again, the SAW/LMGs don't have a lot of choice either.

[Hoff]

I still think the SAW is waaaaaaaaay sexier...

MMMmmm... Belt-fed weapons!

[Thompson]

Morgan- Does not apply to Military operating OUT of CONUS or National Guard during a civil call out. Jurisdiction is fickle when it comes to domestic bases and is left to the Area Commanders.


For CQC competitions, they must be blue for ease of grading AND to get the proper response from the actor.

[Variable]

i think it looks like what would happen if Magpul, Colt, and H&K had an orgy.

Put it on pay-per-view and I'm in.

[Dees]

Can't believe I forgot this, but the Ares Shrike does have a quick change barrel set-up on it, so that is looking more and more appealing as I think about this.

[KA-BAR]

see, this original post was designed to make ya think....


old dogs can learn new tricks.....



LOL



i love this platform.

[Eyes On]

@childs...

yea, this is USMC born, and i bet you my bottom dollar the fact that it has the Eagle, Globe and anchor logo on it's reciver certifies this as a " to be fielded platform" by leathernecks.

Negative. The fact that the photo-op models have EGA's is little more than good marketing on the part of HK. Until the contract is signed, there are lots of things which can change.

@ gunny...

i am listening. id like to hear more.

Barrel = Not changeable = self defeatingly low practical ROF in the suppressive fire role.

Basically it's like this: You empty that C-mag in under a minute... and really, I'm thinking 20-30 seconds, and that barrel is going to get hot. Fire off 2 or three mags in too short of a time, and you're going to start either cooking off rounds or holding that thing like a pistol. Either way, you're upsidedown. The only way around it is to reduce your rate of fire to what the guys carrying M4's are firing. Might as well be carrying an M4 under those circumstances.

With the SAW, you change your barrel, drop the old one on the deck, and come back for it later.

100 rounds is less than 200 rounds no matter how you slice it.

In combat, 200 rounds is better than 100 rounds. 200 linked rounds is even better. If I had my way back in the old days, SAW ammo would've come in 400 round boxes! Because 400 linked rounds is better than 200.

positions in the stack/fireteam are no longer "static"...there is a fluidity added into the mix, when this occurs, too much thought and hesitation is spent on where the SAW is and is not. this platform eliviates that.

more mobility, lighter weight, less cumbersome in tight spaces....everything a MG gunner wants. less weight means i can carry more ammo in the real world....which is your #1 priority as a MG gunner, providing fire support.

It is for the above reasons that the best option is to simply trade out weapons before your squad starts kicking in doors. Failing that, you can operate the weapon without a buttstock or bipod. We were doing that in FAST in the mid-80's.

If you want a "better" solution for this problem that I don't really think needs a solution: rebuild the SAW to fire in open/closed bolt mode, and issue a barrel which has been cut off and inch in front of the gas regulator.