Velocity Limit Changes

[pittsmen]

Ben, I never thought I would say this but your ignorace is staggering.That is the stupidest bleeding idea I have ever heard. The first time your bb goes through my oakleys and blinds me in one eye and I sue you for your "negligence" you will be crying to your mommy. If I get shot in the eye its my damn fault for putting it in the way of your bb, if I get shot in the tooth its my damn fault for opening my mouth. Play at your own damn risk.

[Rico]

That may apply to you Pat. But as a general principle, if an injury occurs because of inappropriate use , or abuse of policy, then the person behind the weapon is liable, and the facilitator of the event can be too. That is just the way the law works.

[DMitri]

Whatever Pat, Your bragging about braking peoples backs SCREAMS negligence. If I shot you in ANSI Z87.1 approved glasses and they broke causing my bb to continue into your eye and blinding you, YES it would be my fault for having a gun that COULD do that and using it in a way that makes that situation probable.

Always wear eye protection in the form of goggles, masks, or shooting glasses, or safety glasses. Never remove your eye protection while on the battlefield. Regular prescription glasses are NOT acceptable as safety eyeware. Must meet ANSI Z87.1 standards and wrap around the face.

Oakleys do not fall into this category.

[pittsmen]

Yeah but what he is saying is you sign a waver of liability over that says that every bb you shoot you are responsible for. WHICH MEANS THAT IT IS NOT UP TO THE ADMIN TO DECIDE. You wait tell some kid gets permanently disfigured from a 6mm scar on his forearm and cleans your a$$ out, then we will have this conversation when you are begging for change at Macdonald’s. If that is the case the person who is going to deem your shot irresponsible is a jury and not us, and guess what you are going to lose ever god damn bleeding time because they don’t think like we do. BLOOD=MONEY how many times have you bled at an airsoft skirmish? LOTS. You wait.

Bullshit I am proving a point that even in the most extreme circumstances your bullshit ideology doesn’t even apply so why would it here.

[djblingbling1]

Damn, all I can say is im gonna invest about 80 bux in new googles. I personally think snipers should have an up in fps, yet need hella training. As for saws, Id say 400 fps is enough, exept that ooyah made a good point about tightbores. So im in favor of all this, but damn do I need some bolle goggles.

[DMitri]

Pat, I don't fire a 650 Fps rifle, nor do I glue my finger onto the trigger of an MG. (*cough* bleeding *cough*)

So I need not worry. I've personally cause 0 in-game injuries due to airsoft. I have no bleeding worries. It's pompus assholes like you who get their egos running that I'm worried about. If someone was permanently disfigured because some idiot layed 100 rounds into his eye-ball, I'd bleeding get on the stand.

If you read carefully, put the ego aside I know it's hard, you'd notice that I'm against both these new rules, and that I'm trying to prevent the need for this completely. That's too hard to fathom I understand.

[djblingbling1]

K just an idea, I just thought of. So saws are aloud 450 fps, so how about DM? I like to call myslef a DM, yet with 400 fps I cant get a tightbore or anything cause ill be at 420ish. I think letting dm have the same rules as SAW gunners would be fair. They would ahve to go to the same classes or whatever, and should have to have star mags or have to use semi or sothing.

[Eyes On]

We're talking about two other subjects. Save that for another day

[pittsmen]

Ben what you are failing to relize is what you or I consatute as an injury is diffrent then the 14 year olds mom with the lawyer. You can't possible create liabilty because there is no body in this community who could afford to play.

[DMitri]

So if you're worried that you won't be able to use your replica without possibly injuring others, DO NOT UPGRADE IT TO THE POINT OF NEEDING A WAIVER.

It REALLY IS that simple.

[Seagreen]

We all should have stopped at springers then, or dirt clod wars, or disc guns...or freeze tag.

Jason summed it up pretty well with the assumed risk portion of his post.

[pittsmen]

No its not that simple because 400 FPS can do the same damage as 450 and 500. people are going to get hurt no matter what, the only diffrence is now people are going to be able to take advantage of this.I would like to pose a question to everybody in this community. Exluding grid 18 has anybody been shot by either my gun seagreens gun or dams gun and been hurt by them, or rather been beyond the norm that would cause you to be concerned for your saftey? the fact of the matter is if you are going to have liabilty it needs to be all speeds cause you can do equal damage with any speed. Ben take a physics 101 class and them come talk to me.

EDIT: or Troys SR

[Pope_Alex_Kaeda_I]

Exluding grid 18 has anybody been shot by either my gun seagreens gun or dams gun and been hurt by them, or rather been beyond the norm that would cause you to be concerned for your saftey?

Yes. And it is part of why I do not trust that individual. Something about that individual not knowing their engagement distance, and shooting people in the head (in my case, it was the ear that was hit. Another individual was climbing the same hill, was hit at the same distance, square in the goggles. Both shots were unsafe shots). Now, how do I know it was an unsafe engagement distance? Something about being able to clear their muzzle by taking three steps, while going up-hill at LaCenter.

See, I havnt forgotten that same individual chronoing their gun at the truckyard . . . . . and big surprise, it was chronoing 450fps - and then they were all "oh, i guess i shouldnt have shown you guys"

The individual I am refering to knows who they are.

I've seen other people get injured at games, injurys that were un-nessassary, and avoidable, had people been playing safely.

[pittsmen]

Alex relax, I am talking about reasonable safe shots, we all shazaam up.

[Ninja2dan]

It should also be reminded that accidents can happen that are NOT at the shooter's and/or target's fault.

WRONG! The shooter brought the gun on the field. The shooter pulled the trigger.

If a shooter fires at a target and is aiming for center mass, and a wind gust causes the projectile to hit target in the neck instead causing minor injury, does this mean the shooter should be responsible?

A Shooter is aiming at quail, the sun gets in his eyes, the shooter shoots his buddy in the face, should he be responsible. <---- That's how dumb that sounded.

In regards to your first post, it seems you did not understand my comment. Accidents can occur due to ricochet hits and other circumstances. There will be some cases of possible injury that are NOT the fault of the shooter. You say it's the shooter's fault for firing his weapon, then what about the person who was hit? They are just as much at fault for being ON THE FIELD. In a case such as just mentioned, it would not be either of their direct fault for any caused injury, hence the term "accident".

In regards to your second comment, again you seem to have misunderstood. I was not saying the shooter isn't responsible for the hit. I was stating that the shooter should NOT be responsible for reimbursement for any injury that may have occured from said incident. The injury was not intentional, and based on current AP rules, the shooter should not be held liable for it. Airsoft BB's, even at limited range, are still not going to be highly accurate. And because of this, slight miss-hits will occur.

Comparing your example with mine is completely different. A wind gust after the shot takes place, in airsoft, where even the slightest wind can drastically alter flight path...that's far from what you mentioned. Taking a shot when the sun is in your eyes, you know from that moment that the shot is not safe. Same principle with real-steel weapons of ensuring there is nothing behind your target in case of a miss or over-penetration. It's common sense, don't fire if you can't see. But a wind gust for example, AFTER the shot took place, is far from the shooter's fault. It would not have been forseen, unlike shooting into the sun.


My point was that the current rules and waiver are just fine as they are. As long as the requirement for bolt-action safety classes are intact, there should be no reason in my opinion to change the waiver or to create any new ones. Specific rules of engagement will be set, but I don't see any posts so far that state a good reason for a new Sniper-specific waiver.

4. I, for myself and on behalf of my heirs, assigns, personal representatives and next of kin, HEREBY RELEASE AND HOLD HARMLESS AIRSOFT PACIFIC OR AIRSOFT PACIFIC LEAGUE, the owners and lessors of premises used to conduct the airsoft activities, their officers, officials, agents and/or employees ("Releasees"), WITH RESPECT TO ANY AND ALL INJURY, DISABILITY, DEATH, or loss or damage to person or property, WHETHER CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASEES OR OTHERWISE, except that which is the result of gross negligence and/or wanton misconduct.

In other words, there is no change to this rule that can be made that would make sense in doing so. The exact same rules will apply with the new changes in place, and they seem just fine as they are.

I understand that there is always the chance that I may be injured in the field, either by a fired projectile, ricochet, environmental hazards, fatigue, etc. Since all those carrying sniper rifles will be required to have passed a safety course, then I feel there is minimal risk involved with their participation. I'm not going out there to play all clean and not get hit. I plan on low-crawling and high-crawling through thorn bushes and mud and deer shit. I plan on getting banged up, sore muscles, cramps, and a few scratches and cuts. That's part of field combat, it's what I'm used to, and the more of it that I see then the more realistic it will feel.

If someone isn't ready to accept these facts and be ready for anything, then simply don't play at AP events. Go play with your weekend buddies that use low-power weapons and forget about it. If you don't trust the people carrying sniper rifles, then you don't trust the safety classes required for them (meaning you don't trust the AP staff in general). And if that's the case, then you don't need to be playing at AP events. Simple, end of story, good night.


NOTE: DMitri, I'm not trying to bash on you in any way. I'm just stating my intentions of this topic, and to make clear my comments. Seeing as I'm new, I don't want my opinions or statements to me misread, misunderstood, or taken in the wrong context. My being new to airsoft does not make me an ignorant noob, and although nobody has directly called me this, I still feel that a few people have that opinion. I have put in some time wearing my greens, and have fired plenty of brass (more so than a large majority of this community). All I ask is that everyone understand where I'm coming from and that I base my opinions on more than gimp-sense.