Velocity Limit Changes

[Eyes On]

The next person who posts about a "need" for a new waiver had better have an OSBA or WSBA Number in their sig line or I'm deleting their comment.

1. WE DON'T NEED TO CHANGE THE WAIVER
2. WE DON'T NEED TO ADD TO THE WAIVER
3. THIS MODIFICATION DOES NOT ADD TO THE LIABILITY OF ANY PARTY INVOLVED, EITHER WITH OR WITHOUT AN ADDENDUM OR MODIFICATION TO THE CURRENT WAIVER.

If anyone doubts this, PM me. Otherwise, we can move on.

[Rogue Reaper]

So because I'm not on a team, haven't been around here playing for X amount of time, my opinion doesn't matter? Bullshit. I care about my own safety, thus I should be able to voice my own concerns whether I'm on a team, or not, a team leader or some new grunt recruit. I think that suggesting that we leave our safety in the hands of others with absolutely zero input is completely out of line.

Like it has been stated in several posts.

Your input into your own safety on the field starts and ends with you making the choice to step on to the field.

You all know the standards set by the host of a game. If you do not and step on the field you do so at your own risk. If you know the rules and enter the field then you have put yourself in a contract trading your risk of injury for your entertainment.

Don't like the rules, Don't go. EATF has set up a DM semi Auto Rule on our games. I have been told by a respected member of this community that they will not attend games with this velocity of Semi Auto on the field.

Respect that.

Pat, you are being to testy. Forums are a bad place to vent opinions because they lack body language and inflection to statements.

I got several calls tonight about how all hell had broke loose in this Forum. Shit this aint nuthin. Every one has an opinion. If every one things the upgrades are bad they wont show to the games and if (IF) they are missed then there may be a reconsideration of the rules.

But Anyways. If you are concerned come out to one of the certifications. Educate yourself on our safety procedures.

[djblingbling1]

Im just curius, but whats the eatf dm rule?

[yandle]

http://eatf.net/index.cfm?fuseaction=fo ... pic_id=673

[Claymore]

I'm not sure what all the fuss is, there are so many other airsoft orgs running at 450 for all guns since airsoft came out, no problems.

Exluding grid 18 has anybody been shot by either my gun seagreens gun

I was shot int he head at Grid 18, between my goggles and my berrett. Don't know if it was Seagreen or the other sniper. It hurt afterwards, and it left a welt, but I accepted it as the risk of playing without a face mask. I never thought about suing or anything like that.

When we do airsoft training at work, with unupgraded glocks, we make everyone wear full facemasks and balaclavs, plus thier bullet proof vests, plus long sleeve shirts or sweatshirts... why all that protection? Becasuse its not voluntary, they are required to go there, so the company assumes the liability. Even though the guns are running at a low FPS, the company wants absolutly no chance that someone might get scratched, so we go to great lenghts.

At a voluntary event you assume the risk. You assume the risk by showing up and playing. Increasing the personal liability to each player would kill the sport.

If I was somehow liable at an event for every shot I made, I wouldn't come. No way can I accept that kind of risk. You never know when someone is going to duck, when you were aiming for thier chest, but they duck and you hit them in the head, maybe chip a tooth, maybey stictch them up the face. Heck, if the sniper who shot me was responsible for his head shot, which broke skin, I could sue for PTSD. It would be a nightmare.

And lets not pretend that shots less than 20ft don't happen. If you run around a building and run into the enemy people don't yell saftey kill, they start shooting. THe only time I've ever tried a saftey kill (as opposd to a surrender) it almost lead to a fist fight as everyone basicly claimed they had the saftey kill first. We all know that people react and snap shots happen at less than 20ft.

The only other thing I'd like to add is lets drop the personal attacks. The thing I like about this forum and this community is that we can talk to each other, please remember that email and forums are terrible modes of communication. Troy said it best, you can't see exspressions or hear inflection, so lets all drop the personal attacks befor we say things we will regret.

[pittsmen]

my point is bill was running 415 to 450 pre grid 18 and nobody complained, dam was shooting 420 when it went over our chrono and mine was hitting 420. Nobody complained and nobody got hurt.

Oakley® SI M-Frame® Industrial Eyewear complies fully with the industrial standards of performance and protection defined by ANSI Z87.1-2003. Even in clear form, our Plutonite® lens material inherently blocks 100% of all UVA, UVB, UVC and harmful blue light. Oakley Industrial Eyewear also utilizes patented XYZ Optics® to maintain precise clarity at all angles of view, even at the edges of raked-back lens contours that maximize peripheral vision and protection. Glasses are marked with ANSI Z87 certification. Made in USA

sorry bud! mine will take bird shot from a shot gun.

[Rogue Reaper]

You should wear them next time you are hunting with the Vice President.

[pittsmen]

You should wear them next time you are hunting with the Vice President.

With? you meen hunting the vice president.

[Rogue Reaper]

My SR shoots 440. I have had it to one game since I put the Systema full gearbox in it. I used it all day at Scapoose and NEVER got a complaint. BEcasue I am not an ASSHAT!

[KA-BAR]

wow this thread has turned from the big dogs having a educated disscussion , into a huge steaming pile of crap!!! lock this pile up!!

[Seagreen]

Actually, if you want to recount the history of that incident Alex: the initial engagement range was just shy of 30ft. You and a few others were moving up a hill, and off my left. Your group was not in my direct path, but at the time I felt that taking out a tier 1 leader was a priority. It was a torso shot that deflected, contacting your left ear lobe. This was an unfortunate accident, in which I appologized post round. The other shot I do not remember, so I dont know if I was the shooter or not. There were others supporting that location as well, but I do not recall taking any number of shots in that location.

Was it an unnecessary shot? In retrospect yes. Would I have shot the same way today, likely not. Accidents can and will happen. I never set out on the field to injure other players.

I was using a field legal AEG (407fps) the day of the event. Hitting Aaron was more luck than skill. There were several enemy troopers in that area and I was shooting semi-auto. I had to elevate to safely shoot over the first targets and dropped 5-10 rounds into the group that was ahead.

[DMitri]

You say it's the shooter's fault for firing his weapon, then what about the person who was hit? They are just as much at fault for being ON THE FIELD.

So if I crash my car into your's when you're on the road it's your fault too? Sweet. Or if we're playing basketball and I take the ball and REAM it into your head from 3 feet away it's your fault too?

Engaging in the same activity as someone else who's doing it wrecklessly or irresponsibly doesn't distribute fault evenly. If I had a gun shooting 650fps and I shot you in the face from 20 feet and chipped a tooth, I SHOULD HAVE TO bleeding PAY THE BILL!

If you run over someone with a car and you kill them due to neglegence, it's still MANSLAUGHTER even if it was an accident, and you should go to jail for it.

You chip someone's tooth at a game because YOU pulled the trigger at 20 feet, you should be paying the bleeding bill. PERIOD.

4. I, for myself and on behalf of my heirs, assigns, personal representatives and next of kin, HEREBY RELEASE AND HOLD HARMLESS AIRSOFT PACIFIC OR AIRSOFT PACIFIC LEAGUE, the owners and lessors of premises used to conduct the airsoft activities, their officers, officials, agents and/or employees ("Releasees"), WITH RESPECT TO ANY AND ALL INJURY, DISABILITY, DEATH, or loss or damage to person or property, WHETHER CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASEES OR OTHERWISE, except that which is the result of gross negligence and/or wanton misconduct.

Now Gunny please correct me if I'm wrong, but I see nothing in there about covering the participants. Only the League (which doesn't even exist) and the Organization of Airsoft Pacific. Also I would consider firing at people from within 30 feet with a SAW or 650fps rifle as "Gross Negligence'.

sorry bud! mine will take bird shot from a shot gun.

Then that sort of defeats your earlier scenerio doesn't it Princess. Take a debate course and then get back to me.

[RedSpo0n]

It doesn't take a heavily upgraded replica to make someone bleed. It's an assumed risk of the game.

I poped Alex in the forehead once with my TMP. It wasn't intentionally a headshot, and left no lasting damage, but he did bleed a bit. For the record, my TMP was averaging 280fps at the time. (I appologized after it happened and felt really bad about it too )

Also, the wavier covers minors in that it requires their parents to sign, correct?

Unless they can prove reckless behavior, or worse, then there really isn't any room for a legal case.

(*note, I'm not a lawyer or even a law student*)

[Ninja2dan]

You say it's the shooter's fault for firing his weapon, then what about the person who was hit? They are just as much at fault for being ON THE FIELD.

So if I crash my car into your's when you're on the road it's your fault too? Sweet. Or if we're playing basketball and I take the ball and REAM it into your head from 3 feet away it's your fault too?

Engaging in the same activity as someone else who's doing it wrecklessly or irresponsibly doesn't distribute fault evenly. If I had a gun shooting 650fps and I shot you in the face from 20 feet and chipped a tooth, I SHOULD HAVE TO f***ing PAY THE BILL!

If you run over someone with a car and you kill them due to neglegence, it's still MANSLAUGHTER even if it was an accident, and you should go to jail for it.

You chip someone's tooth at a game because YOU pulled the trigger at 20 feet, you should be paying the f***ing bill. PERIOD.

4. I, for myself and on behalf of my heirs, assigns, personal representatives and next of kin, HEREBY RELEASE AND HOLD HARMLESS AIRSOFT PACIFIC OR AIRSOFT PACIFIC LEAGUE, the owners and lessors of premises used to conduct the airsoft activities, their officers, officials, agents and/or employees ("Releasees"), WITH RESPECT TO ANY AND ALL INJURY, DISABILITY, DEATH, or loss or damage to person or property, WHETHER CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASEES OR OTHERWISE, except that which is the result of gross negligence and/or wanton misconduct.

Now Gunny please correct me if I'm wrong, but I see nothing in there about covering the participants. Only the League (which doesn't even exist) and the Organization of Airsoft Pacific. Also I would consider firing at people from within 30 feet with a SAW or 650fps rifle as "Gross Negligence'.

sorry bud! mine will take bird shot from a shot gun.

Then that sort of defeats your earlier scenerio doesn't it Princess. Take a debate course and then get back to me.

Again the bashing on me, and not understanding the basis of my posts. OK, here we go again. Let me explain this in simpler terms.

Your most recent post:

So if I crash my car into your's when you're on the road it's your fault too? Sweet. Or if we're playing basketball and I take the ball and REAM it into your head from 3 feet away it's your fault too?

My previous post that you chose to bash on:

In regards to your first post, it seems you did not understand my comment. Accidents can occur due to ricochet hits and other circumstances. There will be some cases of possible injury that are NOT the fault of the shooter. You say it's the shooter's fault for firing his weapon, then what about the person who was hit? They are just as much at fault for being ON THE FIELD. In a case such as just mentioned, it would not be either of their direct fault for any caused injury, hence the term "accident".

As I was saying, if an incident occurs where a person was injured by a projectile fired directly from someone's weapon, and the incident WAS NOT DUE TO GROSS NEGLIGENCE OR MISCONDUCT, then the shooter should not be directly responsible for the injury. Because an incident such as what I described would have been an unforseen accident, there is no cause for the shootee to require the shooter to pay for medical expenses.

What you have done is to, under more than one occassion, describe an incident that is completely opposite of what I have described. I mention an accidental incident or one not due to negligence, and you turn around and throw some gross negligence incident back at me for comparison. The examples I have listed before were not "wrecklessly or irresponsibly", as I have been pointing out incidents that were to make a point. That point being there are some injuries that have no person at fault, although some people might choose to attempt action against them.

If I had a gun shooting 650fps and I shot you in the face from 20 feet and chipped a tooth, I SHOULD HAVE TO f***ing PAY THE BILL!

I agree on this, because it IS in the lines of gross negligence and misconduct. The example incident that I described was NOT along the same lines. So please, stop trying to take my examples and turn them into something they were not. It makes no sense to bring up another example that has nothing to do with the example I had previously described.

If you still do not understand the basis of my posts, and feel that I am in some way for gross negligence (which I am NOT), then please PM me with further bashings so that we may discuss it at length on personal terms and not continue to flood this topic with it. I do not wish to drag this out further, as it is a waste of time. I AM AGAINST NEGLIGENCE. But I will continue to defend myself against hostile posts or posts that bash on my comments wrongfully.

And for the last time, I have nothing personally against you DMitri. If you for some reason have a personal problem with me, please PM me with the problem and we shall discuss the matter as adults to resolve the issue. This goes for everyone else as well.

[samuraiskanker]

Have there ever been any incedences of someone being injured so badly that legal action was taken? Doesn't the waiver cover this?