Spotters (continued from Ghillieman 2011 thread)

[BoogeyMan]

COPIED FROM GHILLIEMAN 2011 THREAD - For continued discussion.

put me down for shooter (tentative) i will know for sure in the middle of march.

my spotter will be disappointed.... will there be a place for them at a later event?

thanks

Boo at a sniper event that doesn't feature spotters...

What is a sniper without a spotter...

Blind alone and most importantly, Dead!

Props for a least putting something out there for those of us that enjoy field-craft just wish I didnt have to consider buying a new gun to participate and be able to use my ghillie.

Boo at a sniper event that doesn't feature spotters...

What is a sniper without a spotter...

Blind alone and most importantly, Dead!

Airsoft really isn't a game where a spotter is needed. There's no need for ballistic calculations for elevation, windage, humidity, temperature, and holds for moving targets. Snipers can dope that in on their own in this game. We normally don't make sketches or range cards. The only thing I can foresee a spotter being utilized as is a security person for the sniper, usually carrying an automatic of some sort. I've been in games where I've worked in tandem with another sniper and definitely had a blast coordinating shots.

Boo at a sniper event that doesn't feature spotters...

What is a sniper without a spotter...

Blind alone and most importantly, Dead!

Airsoft really isn't a game where a spotter is needed. There's no need for ballistic calculations for elevation, windage, humidity, temperature, and holds for moving targets. Snipers can dope that in on their own in this game. We normally don't make sketches or range cards. The only thing I can foresee a spotter being utilized as is a security person for the sniper, usually carrying an automatic of some sort. I've been in games where I've worked in tandem with another sniper and definitely had a blast coordinating shots.

You totally contradicted yourself, no response needed lol

I think you and I have differing ideas on what a 'spotter' is. But if your condescending message towards me makes you feel better then so be it. Hope to see you at the event and maybe we can talk and you can give me an education.

OK...sorry, I don't want to clutter up this post more than it is, but seriously dude? What contradiction? Your arrogance leads me to suspect you must be legendary in your sniping abilities as well as your ability to read between the lines of a post. I'm with Vaughn, perhaps you could educate ALL of us, since clearly by your standards we don't know how to snipe, or read?

Rant Off (Sorry Morgan).

It sounds like I wouldn't learn anything from this "Fieldcraft" event anyways, since all of you are asking to be educated. So good luck KA-BAR

If you're that arrogant to believe you won't learn anything, you don't belong there. The reason we want you there is because you sound like a pompous asshole know-it-all and I want to see what kind of real knowledge you actually don't have.

I'm looking forward to this event and seeing what everyone is doing. Good community building for the bolt turners around here.

In defense of my spotter....... what he means is that no modern sniper is JUST that. He is a part of an elite team. There are always two of them. A sniper is nothing without his spotter. The spotter is typically the more experienced shooter of this two man team. He is there for more than just being a body guard. In airsoft he is an integral part of making the team successful. He is a force multiplier.

It is true that in airsoft there is no need to make calculations for extreme long range shots. Or draw range cards unless you're doing reconnaissance for a LRP in a mil-sim game. Or researching a new field that we might play on. If you don't know your terrain you can't be an effective weapon. It isn't an exact science. It is an art. It takes many brushes to create a masterpiece. It takes just as many skills to make a good sniper TEAM. without them you are useless...

All in all if you snipe in airsoft it isn't that much fun to be that "lone gunman", sitting in a bush somewhere with no one to talk to. it is much more fun and you will be much more successful when you run with a spotter.

okay, my two cents, just sayin, i'm not gonna go into detail or anything and i really don't wanna become a part of this, but i keep hearing "snipers are useless alone" or without com.
it's the biggest BS i've heard, for a while i hadn't had any radios, and i went solo just to go out and get some hits, with a ghillie suit, you destroy
if you have a decent ghillie suit you are most likely a more valuable asset to your team and shooting people than that one guy with multicam and a LiPo M4 with a drum mag

If only your spotter had your eloquence, instead of an innate talent for insulting people. Arrogance doesn't go far here.

You make some good points about building a good sniper team, which I agree with. However in airsoft, I will maintain it is still possible to be highly effective as a solo sniper. It is all about what makes the game the most enjoyable for you.

i have run my entire career solo, so in my opinion you dont know what you are talking about.

do you have any real world experience? were you a scout/sniper for any of the armed forces branches?

where did you get your sniper training?

this is about a event i have created for shooters to gain skills in fieldcraft.


if you cant deal with that, or it is beyond your comprehension, then please...

do me a favor and start your own thread.

i know that you are a long experienced AIRSOFT sniper and i don't mean to troll around but i have to ask... have you any real world experience? have you ever done any research or read a book on the matter at hand? you totally embody all that is the stereotype of snipers. independant and arrogant. the "I don't need anyone attitude"

I am truely sorry that you feel as though i am ignorant on the matter. I have gained my knowledge mostly first hand on the field. My spotter and I have gone through about 10 ghillie designs trying new ones and perfecting techniques in field craft. We have read countless books and read every manual we could get our hands on. i play every weekend sometimes twice a weekend if i can swing it. I am a seasoned player and so is my spotter. we play with section9 and the Siberian Dragoons (NOX's team) from southern Oregon.

I have run both with and without a spotter and i have to say that i more than triple my kills when i run with my spotter. perhaps you just haven't found the right person that compliments your play style.

I still would love to come and play a day in the bush and talk shop with other snipers. It is always good to compare notes with other people on field-craft. It is a shame that spotters aren't allowed. It really is like i am leaving the most important part of my kit at home.

i do not have any real world experience. i am self taught. i worked my way into the position i am in this community, by hard work, trial and error, and being damn good at what i do.

if i was to triple my kills in a game, then everyone would be walking back to spawn. this role is not about kill count. infact the best i have seen in this community dont pull triggers, they "allow" you to live in thier presence. until they feel its time for you too walk to spawn.

so i am not impressed with your kill count.

now, if you want to play and compete and show us your stuff, fine....sign up.

but please stop shitting in this thread or i will ban you from all of my events....is that clear enuff for you?

[KA-BAR]

thanks brother....now if i could just get a event thread clean up.

[BoogeyMan]

@sovereignmule

I don't know if your questions were fielded to everyone that posted in that thread or not, but I'll reply:

Yes, I have real world experience. I'm a law enforcement officer in Oregon. I train with SWAT team members around the metro area. Long range shooting is a hobby of mine and I compete regularly in sniper competitions around the region. In those competitions I've competed in the stalk events. I learned my fieldcraft through trial and error and picking the minds of the trained observers that spotted me. Since I got caught in my first few competitions, I learned from mistakes and improved my fieldcraft. I sought out training from people I knew including snipers from local SWAT teams and military operators. I've taken training from Blackwater operators that were also former Marine scout snipers. Currently I'm scheduled to goto sniper school in May. Since I joined airsoft as a hobby a few years ago, I was invited to join a team that has a plethora of knowledge and experience who has very seasoned airsoft snipers that are extremely successful and they pushed me to improve even further.

On the topic of solo snipers - in the real world, yes it happens more often than you would think. I can't speak from military experience but with SWAT teams in the area, the sniper operates alone. He is the eyes of the unit and he has a lot of responsibility in relaying his observations to command and the unit effectively. The sniper's role evolves in different incidents. There might be some incidents where a spotter may be utilized, but is rare due to manpower. Other teams may operate differently, but I am only speaking from my experience and conversations I've had with SWAT snipers I work with.

My opinion - most of the time in airsoft it's easier for a lone operator to maneuver solo rather being in tandem with a 'spotter'. Sure, they should have comms, but two people moving together is easier to catch than a solo operator. I think in our discussion the term 'spotter' and their responsibilities has been coincided with what I call 'security' - someone with an AEG that can lay down fire if you need to exfil and basically gives overwatch for the bolt turner. Really - it all comes down to the event you're operating in. If it's an event where there's objectives for a sniper team (STA team) then sure form up a team and go take care of business. The problem I see recently is that event organizers are not using the snipers appropriately. For example I'd like to see snipers given an opportunity to go out in the field before hand and setup a hide or scout their AO ahead of time. Just some of my thoughts - - -

[Darius137]

Nobody likes playing with Kabar so he's hosting a solo event.

Also there is a portion of the US Army sniper course where you're alone working on hitting targets and stalking.

Having a spotter there does add difficulty, but it's a different type of event.

[ogrejager]

1. It's easier to hide 2 people at 300 meters (or more) in real life than to hide 2 at 60 meters in airsoft. Loners are easier to hide.

2. Yes! Let the team's snipers deploy BEFORE the event starts. Talk about using your hide. That would be awesome.

My opinion doesn't really matter though, as I'm not a sniper nor do I have any real world experience (other than hiding in the woods a lot as a hunter).

[KA-BAR]

i agree that a 15-30min pre deployment would be milsim.

[quigly]

I'm going to chime in here and throw what I think a "spotter" is/should be for airsoft. I first see it as a security guy like previously stated. But I also think that they should have a rifle that has a fair range with very good accuracy, then have them set up with a different field of view(intersecting) so that they can take out targets that the sniper either doesn't think they can hit them for sure, or doesn't want to take the shot for what ever reason. Also I think that if you do have a sniper/spotter team you need direct coms with your team buddy as to not clog team channels, so that they can SPOT targets or potential targets for the sniper and inform him of any enemies close to the snipers position. Again, this is just what I see them as being useful.

[sovereignmule]

to all who replied to my questions of sniper experience..... they were directed at ka-bar and not everyone else, although i do appreciate the different views and experience of all players on the field. as far as swat snipers go, you are right sheepdog, because of manpower you cant afford to pay another person to be an observer for the teams sniper. however i am sure that if your organization could, you would. it never hurts to have a second set of eyes on the target to spot something that maybe the shooter missed and needs to take into account. just like in airsoft if the sniper has scope focus really bad he doesn't know what is going on in his immediate surroundings, so then the spotter steps in. all good points have been made, in fact i cannot see any bad ones that have been made. everyone has their own play style. some with spotters and some without.

i never meant to make this a pissing contest about who kills more i merely meant to make an observation about how many more kills i get when i run in tandem with another person. another set of eyes.

as far as your idle threats to never let me play in one of your events.... i have to say that i am unimpressed with your candor and i will not be attending your event. also i would advise anyone from Southern Oregon not to go to your event as i believe you are more arrogant about your role as a sniper than my spotter is about being a spotter. i would not want any budding snipers to go there and be tainted by your arrogance as "the king" of all snipers. i would rather they learn from the experienced snipers down here and make their own decision on how they can best facilitate their skills to the benefit of the rest of the community.

[KA-BAR]

good for you fuckard.

you got your wish.


banned.

[Matt]

Meh, who cares. Most snipers are idiots anyway. This is exactly why I think all snipers are assholes, because they ALL act like this and the majority of them SUCK and get raped by riflemen on a regular basis. Most of them are lazy fuckers with scopes who like sitting in the same place all day counting their kills. You are no help to your team whatsoever.

In my opinion, if you wanna teach snipers how to do their job... teach them how to communicate with the CO. I haven't had a useful sniper on my side since Gallant Saber II. In 10 years of Airsoft I have only been to a handful of events where the sniper team was useful.

Drop the pissing contest and get along. You're all just another dude without a fully automatic wasting everybody's time.

[RBeran]

Your snipers would learn a lot up here. We probably have more former and current real operators than most airsoft communities. It's just that your spotter pissed off KA-BAR.

You seem very concerned about 'real world' experience, yet in your posts, you don't list any...only that you have gained experience "on the field" and from reading books. Now I will not be so arrogant as to presume you don't have any real world experience, but perhaps you could enlighten us as to what it is...and please, this is not an attempt to be a tool, I'd really like to know.

As for trying to start a pissing contest about Southern Oregon Airsoft and our community up here...great, go ahead. We don't care! The truth is, your spotter chimed into our thread and got arrogant. When we called him on the carpet, you chimed in to defend him as any good team-mate should.

If you really think your way is better. Prove it. Come to one of our bigger OPs (that you're not banned from) where you can run tandem, and come show us you're chops! Saying your going to Sh**t-Talk our community to your own, and advise people to stay away? Wow...that's grade school.

The bottom line in airsoft, is whatever works for you and gives you the most fun...we are, after all, grown men shooting bb's at each other!

[Juicemachine]

shazaam.

And you guys say I'm a troll.

[Matt]

If you really think your way is better. Prove it. Come to one of our bigger OPs (that you're not banned from) where you can run tandem, and come show us you're chops! Saying your going to Sh**t-Talk our community to your own, and advise people to stay away? Wow...that's grade school.

He's talking about KA-BAR's events, not the community as a whole. KA-BAR is his own "special" community

[KA-BAR]

i stopped counting kills when the kill count got unrealistic.

as for usefulness, i disagree matt. maybe the snipers that you have been running with, and not just the ones on your team but just in general have not been that useful to you specificly, but i have seen first hand and as a admin what a good sniper can do on the field. i have done full area denial and watched people avoid my lane of fire, and i have seen other snipers out there take out fireteams of 4-8 men.

@ the BSP snipers challenge, we all had to use radios for callins and sitreps. also in Ghilleman events like the stalk and shoot and other future events i and others in the group will be showing by example that the ghillie and the radio is the main stay and that the rifle is the third tool in the box.

when i ran with Bill at a snipers den game, Bill showed me that it is not the killing, the ripping and the tearin.....its the POOF i am gone. i watched him ALLOW a whole team to walk by him like he was a pile of dirt. he just looked back at me a smiled. i said " we arent going to take them out? we got them all!" he said ..." no. ill allow them to live." it was then that i got the picture. s we just sat there and listened to them plan and talk on the radios, and then we relayed the info back to base. ez-mode. then we moved on....then came the firefight with the fragistani commandos and all hell broke loose. then bill...he ditched me. he took two steps and dissa- fuking- peared on me. that is when i started racking up the kill count, starting with the bag man....

bag man to team in area: "you guys on my team?"
answer from OPFOR : "yea"
bag man to team in area: " well i got the brief case with all the money, ill bring it too you!"
answer from OPFOR : " Okay we are up here!"

he walks within 20 yards of me and i opened fire with a short burst. he calls his hit and starts bitching about team kills, then they yell to him that there is a sniper team down there....LOL!

fieldcraft. its everything.
the radio. its your lifeline.
the rifle. your hand of judgement.

this is what i will be passing along at all of my ghillieman events. hopefully matt, this will improve the inner community of bolt turners that we play with on a regular basis, and thus improve the role for you on the field.





KA-BAR out.

[Matt]

Well then, when they impress me they will know they have done something that not many folks in this community have done.

Go a little easier on people who are interested in your event dude, otherwise it's gonna be so exclusive that you'll be the only one there.