California Senate Bill 798, what can we do?

[Jester316]

It doesn't matter if a parent says "sure you can have it".

IF a parent lets their sub-18 have access to a firearm (real, fake, cardboard,...) then they need to be supervising them. Adults are allowed to do stupid things, because they are adults. Sure, what they do may hurt the sport, however, 99% of the time, they just get in trouble with the law. As soon as someone under the age of 18 is involved, it stops being a personal issue, and becomes a blanket issue.

I said it before and I'll say it again:
An adult get shot brandishing an airsoft gun, and it's his own fault because he should have known better. He is accountable for his own actions.

A kid get shot brandishing an airsoft gun, and it's the airsoft guns fault because it looked to much like a real gun. Don't even consider that his ACTIONS were what got him shot.

[Ivan Daylovich™]

It doesn't matter if a parent says "sure you can have it".

Yes, it does.

IF a parent lets their sub-18 have access to a firearm (real, fake, cardboard,...) then they need to be supervising them.

Not according to the law.

Also WarHawk is correct. Section 2aA.

[Miracle]

Yes but as stated those are OR state laws, not CA state laws, in which this incident occurred. I'm curious as to how they differ.

[B.O.P. Hawk]

An adult get shot brandishing an airsoft gun, and it's his own fault because he should have known better. He is accountable for his own actions.

A kid get shot brandishing an airsoft gun, and it's the airsoft guns fault because it looked to much like a real gun. Don't even consider that his ACTIONS were what got him shot.

This is too much the truth.

This situation is a prime example of what happens when people rely too much on the gov't to get things done, because they are too lazy to do it themselves.

(EDIT:)
"When dealing with life, there is one thing you must realize: people are stupid, and there is nothing you can do about it."

Yes but as stated those are OR state laws, not CA state laws, in which this incident occurred. I'm curious as to how they differ.

Then research it... Google, my friend.

[Wisenheimer]

My google-fu is weak, maybe someone else with have better luck trying to dig up stats.

I think he knows what google is to use an awesome word like google-fu.

[Miracle]

Yes but as stated those are OR state laws, not CA state laws, in which this incident occurred. I'm curious as to how they differ.

Then research it... Google, my friend.

Let me be honest I was only playing devil's advocate. I personally don't believe anyone under 18 should be on an airsoft field without a 21 year old or older guardian. If you can't legally sign for yourself, you shouldn't be present by yourself. I certainly don't agree with KABAR's disrespectful statements and I think he needs to check his ego however I agree with the bar against minors.

I didn't start playing until after I was 18 because of my community's strictness with this rule. And I think it is a good one, if only because one injured child can turn a minor issue into a major platform (Case in point: the CA Bill).

I really don't care to look up what the minor's laws are regarding firearms in the state of CA. If I wanted to, I could have. I am not a minor therefore I'm not going to worry about semantics and the letter of the law. This whole fiasco in California doesn't have to do with legality. Lawmakers are trying to pander to the perceptions of overprotective parents and set a precedent for further gun control laws. I was merely trying to get you to think about the details. When arguing legality issues, it generally helps to know the laws about which you are arguing. Including which state your case resides in.

[B.O.P. Hawk]

Point taken.
but I must say that I disagree with KA-BAR on both fronts. I should not be restricted from playing when my parents are not around just because I am not 18 yet. I had to get my parent to sign waiver as to prevent any legal issues if somebody was hurt (including me). Besides, my parents are not stupid enough to push a lawsuit.

All this goes to support one of my previous points: Not all kids are the same, and not all parents are the same.

[B.O.P. Hawk]

double post... sorry

[Wisenheimer]

Not all kids are the same, and not all parents are the same.

That is no argument. At all. Period.

Not to slam your opinion, really, but when has that argument ever mattered?

It's not about specifics. It's about generalities, and the fallacies people believe when politicians stoke their fears.

[KA-BAR]

self entitlement at its best.


ban kids.


KA-BAR is pro SB 798!

[Switchback]

self entitlement at its best.


ban kids.


KA-BAR is pro SB 798!

You are so right. It is a privilege, not a right, to own airsoft replicas.

This would probably only slightly delay the inevitable ban of realistic airsoft replicas; sales would go down, but adults would still buy them. The business would just get worse. The games would get smaller, and kids that used to airsoft would move on to other things by the time they were grown.

I'd like to think I am a safe airsoft player, and not a total asshat with my replicas. I don't take them in public, fire upon unsuspecting animals, etc.
Point is, there are some of us that can agree with your feelings right now, but know we are different; responsible kids should be allowed to play!

ban irresponsible kids.

Now, I don't know exactly how one goes about checking for "responsibility", but I read of an idea here a while ago that is something like this:

Make a game where minors come out, and under the "supervision" of adults, play airsoft. Then, they get "signed off" by the supervisors. They undergo some brief safety training (how to unplug batteries and remove magazines, derp). THEN AND ONLY THEN can they (we) come to OP events with the rest of the community. If you mess up, you show your little "certification card" or whatever, and it gets incinerated or something. Then you have to do it again. 3 strikes, you're out.

It's a start, yes?

[KA-BAR]

if your dad came out and played with you on a weekly basis and went to every game with you i would probably have a much different stance....but as i see it... irresposible parents are the ones dropping their kids off at games for the promoters and admins to babysit.

i think that is more uncool then the unsportsman like conduct that is displayed by the youth at games....no parent is there to supervise their kid, or slap their kids mouth when they swear or act the fool towards another adult.


you think half these douchebag kids would yell out "call your fuckin hit you cute kitty!" if their dad was sitting right there next to them. and if they did feel comfortable acting that way infront of their parents, then its probaby not their fault and their parents have already failed them horribly, as a parent with no moral compass or common sence. and their kids are the one that pay in the end, winding up socialy retarded and growing up as a non valued citizen, so its a non issue really.


but that is not the case. the fact are there is no supervision, and the kids run wild and act like tools. so they get treated like that. on the field and on the forums. by adults who dont give a rats a$$ about minors. i am not here to mentor someone elses kids, because they dont have the time in life to mentor their own kid. i am a adult, i do not seek out and build relationships with minors and treat them as my peers. they are not. they do not have the life experience necessary.



so until we police up our community....uncle sam has no prolem whatsoever doing it for you. go SB 798!



have fun with that.

[Ranger Commie]

if your dad came out and played with you on a weekly basis and went to every game with you i would probably have a much different stance....but as i see it... irresposible parents are the ones dropping their kids off at games for the promoters and admins to babysit.

i think that is more uncool then the unsportsman like conduct that is displayed by the youth at games....no parent is there to supervise their kid, or slap their kids mouth when they swear or act the fool towards another adult.


you think half these douchebag kids would yell out "call your fuckin hit you cute kitty!" if their dad was sitting right there next to them. and if they did feel comfortable acting that way infront of their parents, then its probaby not their fault and their parents have already failed them horribly, as a parent with no moral compass or common sence. and their kids are the one that pay in the end, winding up socialy retarded and growing up as a non valued citizen, so its a non issue really.


but that is not the case. the fact are there is no supervision, and the kids run wild and act like tools. so they get treated like that. on the field and on the forums. by adults who dont give a rats a$$ about minors. i am not here to mentor someone elses kids, because they dont have the time in life to mentor their own kid. i am a adult, i do not seek out and build relationships with minors and treat them as my peers. they are not. they do not have the life experience necessary.



so until we police up our community....uncle sam has no prolem whatsoever doing it for you. go SB 798!



have fun with that.

I am 16 and have learnt *PROPER* gun saftey. And with that I say I agree partially with you KA-BAR. Parents droping kids off like it's a damn day care is unacceptable. MY parents drop me off because I PROVED resposibility with an airsoft gun. While I dont believe the airsoft guns should be bright freaking colors I do believe Mandatory training should be reqiered for ALL airsofters once a year and before purchasing any new airsoft gun. I have seen my share of dumb a$$ adults playing airsoft and banning it from minors wont fix any thing. Then instead of the stupid youth running around you get stupid 20 to 30 year olds running around like a chicken running with it's damn head cut off with no regard to safty or fair play.

[KA-BAR]

basicly it will be all clear and blazen color replicas.

no adults will want to participate any longer since the milsim aspect will be totally killed off.

airsoft will be a mainstream extreame hobby like paint ball. with cool sponsors like monster drinks and DC shoes n cool kids tactical $600 blackhawk medical bags carrying books too school. Tactifashion!

ONLY kids will play. because the mentality is " i shot you first" ..." no, you did'nt! call yer hits cute kitty!"... yea have fun with that.



adults will go do things that make them happy where minors are not allowed. many of the NRA shooting sports prohibit minors. i like that. i do not want to have to deal with the liability and baggage minors carry with them. if its a adult who get caught cheating or doing something stupid with a live firearm ...they get blacklisted or banned, and possibly criminally charged.

end of story, no threads begging to get back in , or can i come to this event. you are done....go away. find another hobby. i like it when poor sports and cheaters or people that should just not be there are treated in this fashion. those are the communities that foster good sportsmanship and propper respect for deadly weapons.

[Miracle]

Besides, my parents are not stupid enough to push a lawsuit.

Until something happens, then I wouldn't be surprised if they changed their tune. It happens all the time.

It's been said before, but this is about GENERALIZATIONS. Sure, there are responsible minors, but it seems like they are greatly outnumbered by those kids who f**k around with their replicas, and who are rarely, if ever, supervised. Because those kids haven't been taught to treat replicas responsibly, and because those kid's parents just gave them replicas because, in their mind, they're nothing but toys, all of us have the potential to get upsidedown over.

Point is, it doesn't matter if there are some minors that play responsibly. As long as there is ONE minor that does something stupid, we all get upsidedown, because like Jester said, kids are NEVER blamed for their actions. It's always the object or other people.

I'm personally hoping that this CA bill leads to UK-like regulation of airsoft.

I totally agree with Nasty here. I would prefer the regulation of airsoft in the US to take example from the UK. Adults that are members of airsoft "clubs" i.e. fields, nationwide memberships and registries are allowed to purchase milspec replicas and the like. Under 18's are required to have clear receiver or blazen colored replicas, and are under strict mandates of guardianship and supervision while playing.

Its a form of control on the replica-owning population. That said, airsoft over there is huge and well organized, and the communities have done a very good job of policing themselves and promoting a responsible reputation. Also, regulated sites with lincensed vendors and owners as well as strict marshall requirements are all over the place, over 120+ sites in the UK, which has a fraction of our national landmass. They all belong to larger coalitions under the same laws which restrict replica ownership, and you have to pay club fees like a golf course or gym.

I personally love their approach to regulation. I think its a great system, born out of the same conflict as the CA bill.

And for the record, all of the minors that are complaining because they feel that they have "shown the are responsible", the risk still greatly outweighs the benefit to the airsoft community. You may have to wait a couple years to play, but guess what, thats life. There are legal age limitations everywhere. You cannot drive until you're 16, buy tobacco products until you're 18, can't buy alcohol until you're 21. How many 19 and 20 year olds in college complain about not being able to go buy alcohol, answering criticisms with the same "But I'm really responsible about the way I drink, I should be able to buy it if I want". It doesn't matter about the individual, its about the general populace. You may not like it but you're part of a demographic where you are not an individual, you're labeled by "children" and "minors" as a whole.

I think regulation needs to come out of this bill for all of the airsofting community, and unfortunately for you guys I sincerely support and believe in a ban for under-18s without close supervision at all times.

*As a note, I don't want anyone thinking that I in any way support or agree with KABAR's statements.