* Friendly Fire on Saturday - A Case Study for Uniforms *

[Cameron Zombie]

Basically it all comes down to PID. I've played and hosted games with everything from extreme differences in camo to armbands. Not one thing cuts down on TK'ing. Players need to learn to stop being so itchy on the trigger finger and 1) Give your team a lookover before the game starts and 2) Actually be able to see what they are shooting at. That goes out the window if someone is shooting at you, no one can get mad at anyone but themselves when they open fire at a friendly and are promptly shot.

[Cruz FoxHound]

It would be nice to hear more from other players that were at the game. It's a good thing we have the conversation going because new ideas will come out of it. At the end of the day, everyone wants to have a good time and prevent team kills, so i think we can learn from it and figure out how we each want to enjoy the game.

Rentax - shirts vs skins would be a very easy way to target ID haha

[Tankwitch]

Armbands can be realistic in certain situations. Look at the one time communist rebel group "FARC." Both sides used the same weapons and uniforms so they identified themselves with large armbands. Friendly fire was a big problem in that conflict.

Newbs need games where they can be newbs. They need both large and small games in order to both learn the game and find a play style the fits them.Expecting everyone to jump into the requirements of mil-sim or tac-sim is unrealistic for both the players.

On another point not all airsofters are into airsoft as a military simulation game. Some people just want a fun way to exercise, some are fans of military firearms, some like military history, others are defectors from paintball, and so on. Limiting airsoft to a one ideal limits the fun of it and would kill the game for several groups of people. If the community is to grow we have to allow for lots of different ways to play and enjoy airsoft.

[Steve]

Shirts vs. Pants.

[G00SE770]

It might help with trigger control if a player teamkills --he is out instead of the one he shot. A self imposed penalty would be a great learning tool...

[Payback]

Armbands can be realistic in certain situations. Look at the one time communist rebel group "FARC." Both sides used the same weapons and uniforms so they identified themselves with large armbands. Friendly fire was a big problem in that conflict.

Newbs need games where they can be newbs. They need both large and small games in order to both learn the game and find a play style the fits them.Expecting everyone to jump into the requirements of mil-sim or tac-sim is unrealistic for both the players.

On another point not all airsofters are into airsoft as a military simulation game. Some people just want a fun way to exercise, some are fans of military firearms, some like military history, others are defectors from paintball, and so on. Limiting airsoft to a one ideal limits the fun of it and would kill the game for several groups of people. If the community is to grow we have to allow for lots of different ways to play and enjoy airsoft.

Holy cow, 100% on point with this. My thoughts exactly.

[Rentax]

Armbands can be realistic in certain situations. Look at the one time communist rebel group "FARC." Both sides used the same weapons and uniforms so they identified themselves with large armbands. Friendly fire was a big problem in that conflict.

I actually don't have a problem with Armbands as part of a uniform requirement if it makes sense. Like in the case Tankwitch, has made above. If it's called for because of realism and aides the event host in team selection, then I'm all for it, but in the case of only one team wears white shemags, that's penalizing that team for no reason...
Also I like the fact that you followed you statement up wit "Friendly fire was a big problem in that conflict" because it's almost like living proof that ARMBANDS DON'T WORK!

I thought I was clear about the fact that I agree that new players need games. That new players in both large and small groups need time to learn the game and learn their individual play style. I'm not saying we shouldn't give them their day(s) in the sun and allow them to find their way. But that doesn't mean that an event host has to hold their hand and baby them the whole way. Event hosts that expect more out of their players are the ones that put on the bigger and better events. Event hosts that host to the lowest common denominator, their event will never get any better because they are not pushing their players to better themselves. Their players won't learn Positive Target Identification, if it's never expected of them. I know for a fact that "requirements" is not a work I use, and it's not something I expect from anyone. (Hell most people cant make it to a game with the "required" death rag, why should I assume they will make it with anything else?) I'm not asking hosts to require uniforms, as a matter of fact I talked about using civilian clothing as a pattern for helping to lump teams together. This way players get to work on and hone their target identification skills and it helps them better themselves.
You touched on the fact that not all airsofters are into Mil-sim or Tac-soft, and I agree there are many reasons that players play airsoft. But why play airsoft over say paintball, or Lazertag, and that comes back to the realism of it. From what I have seen most people are drawn to airsoft because they enjoy the realistic aspects of Airsoft, over those of say paintball or lazertag. Weather that's the realism of the weapons themselves, the way airsoft make military history more real for them (PS I'm assuming your talking about Vietnam or WW2 airsofters or re-enactors here and they are notorious for having staunch requirements for their events) even most of the defectors from paintball that I have talked to say they like airsoft because it's more realistic and they enjoy it's use of higher level of field tactics. I'm not limiting airsoft to one idea, I'm saying that for most people the enjoyment of airsoft all stems from the same place, realism. And the more a host can do to push his games to a more realistic feel the more people seem to enjoy it.
Which sounds like a better game:
A: "hold point X for 5 min's and then leave and your team get 10 points"
B: "You have to move to point X, hold it for 5 min's while the bomb is set and then exfil. Once your last man is out the bomb goes off and your team gets 10 points"
It's the same game, but the realism of the story makes players want to play. If you set up a sound effect of a bomb that goes off when they exfil it's all the more amazing and fun for the players.
Realism is what drives airsoft.

[Shortbu]

First off, what field are you guys talking about?
Secondly, there's good and bad points to both sides. Small arm bands, hidden or removed, indistinguishable colors, plots so bright it makes it almost impossible for snipers/DM's to hide. Some camo patterns become difficult to distinguish when faded, and as Rentax stated, knockoff Multicam can be pretty green. I have ArcTeryx Multicams, which are issue for military and LE, and they are greener than Cryes.
There's always going to be some level of confusion, just as in real life. Proper use of comms, and running in squads helps so as to know approximately where other teammates are and what they are trying to accomplish. But even that's not fool proof. Hell, been on my team with Rentax for a few years, and I still shot his a$$ at a Silverton Skirm when I got turned around.
Basically at this point I realize it is what it is, and just hope my teammates use target recognition. Only time I get irritated with it, is when it's really close.

[Payback]

First off, what field are you guys talking about?
Secondly, there's good and bad points to both sides. Small arm bands, hidden or removed, indistinguishable colors, plots so bright it makes it almost impossible for snipers/DM's to hide. Some camo patterns become difficult to distinguish when faded, and as Rentax stated, knockoff Multicam can be pretty green. I have ArcTeryx Multicams, which are issue for military and LE, and they are greener than Cryes.
There's always going to be some level of confusion, just as in real life. Proper use of comms, and running in squads helps so as to know approximately where other teammates are and what they are trying to accomplish. But even that's not fool proof. Hell, been on my team with Rentax for a few years, and I still shot his a$$ at a Silverton Skirm when I got turned around.
Basically at this point I realize it is what it is, and just hope my teammates use target recognition. Only time I get irritated with it, is when it's really close.

This is at Action Acres. The arm band colors are always green and blue.

The arm bands in question are marking tape tied to an elastic band. Usually there are two long tails per band. They are plenty visible when worn correctly. If a player chooses to hide theirs, or take it off, or wear it incorrectly they are effectively cheating and will be corrected (I had several people i reminded to fix theirs that day).

I have talked to the game host about it, they aren't going to use the sweat bands due to cost, and not wanting to require kiddo's to buy them. But they are evolving the system each time. Again, this game was unusual with the amount of friendly fire. One reason they only used 1 per arm was the supply was low since hardly any were returned, and more people showed than expected. ( I know, lets hear the criticism on that)

I can go on and on about my feelings toward milsim and the teams that only play that type of game. But that's not what this topic is about, it's about friendly fire at a game hosted by a field that is for the casual player. They will never use camo as a team split. They will use arm bands, or something similar.

I will also say that during this same game i saw allot of people having fun, sharing stories of pew pewing each other, and allot of team work for those who wanted it. I didn't see teams off on their own huddled up away from the rest of the groups.

My best suggestion, come out and play. I know you'll have fun. If not, you're doing it wrong.

[ogrejager]

Basically at this point I realize it is what it is, and just hope my teammates use target recognition. Only time I get irritated with it, is when it's really close.

We do. We actually recognize that it's you and then shoot.

[Shortbu]

Basically at this point I realize it is what it is, and just hope my teammates use target recognition. Only time I get irritated with it, is when it's really close.

We do. We actually recognize that it's you and then shoot.

Touché muthaf..ka!

[Cruz FoxHound]

The specific field was originally left out of the discussion because the concept of game IFF systems is universal to all airsofters regardless of what field is involved. Additionally, it is clear that the field staff puts in a lot of work so that people like us can have a great time -- our discussion could have been easily become critical of their efforts rather than focusing on target ID issues.

Anyways, after the game on Saturday I couldn't stop thinking about the friendly fire & decided to share my experience with the community. While I think rigid camo separation is the best possible IFF system, I also recognize it is not always possible or even desirable for many reasons. Everyone involved in this discussion has made excellent points (most constructive of all is Jester316's "engagement decision tree"), but I think at this point our community efforts would be best spent improving the armband system.

It is the year 2015 -- it could probably be improved.

[Shortbu]

First off, what field are you guys talking about?
Secondly, there's good and bad points to both sides. Small arm bands, hidden or removed, indistinguishable colors, plots so bright it makes it almost impossible for snipers/DM's to hide. Some camo patterns become difficult to distinguish when faded, and as Rentax stated, knockoff Multicam can be pretty green. I have ArcTeryx Multicams, which are issue for military and LE, and they are greener than Cryes.
There's always going to be some level of confusion, just as in real life. Proper use of comms, and running in squads helps so as to know approximately where other teammates are and what they are trying to accomplish. But even that's not fool proof. Hell, been on my team with Rentax for a few years, and I still shot his a$$ at a Silverton Skirm when I got turned around.
Basically at this point I realize it is what it is, and just hope my teammates use target recognition. Only time I get irritated with it, is when it's really close.

This is at Action Acres. The arm band colors are always green and blue.

The arm bands in question are marking tape tied to an elastic band. Usually there are two long tails per band. They are plenty visible when worn correctly. If a player chooses to hide theirs, or take it off, or wear it incorrectly they are effectively cheating and will be corrected (I had several people i reminded to fix theirs that day).

I have talked to the game host about it, they aren't going to use the sweat bands due to cost, and not wanting to require kiddo's to buy them. But they are evolving the system each time. Again, this game was unusual with the amount of friendly fire. One reason they only used 1 per arm was the supply was low since hardly any were returned, and more people showed than expected. ( I know, lets hear the criticism on that)

I can go on and on about my feelings toward milsim and the teams that only play that type of game. But that's not what this topic is about, it's about friendly fire at a game hosted by a field that is for the casual player. They will never use camo as a team split. They will use arm bands, or something similar.

I will also say that during this same game i saw allot of people having fun, sharing stories of pew pewing each other, and allot of team work for those who wanted it. I didn't see teams off on their own huddled up away from the rest of the groups.

My best suggestion, come out and play. I know you'll have fun. If not, you're doing it wrong.

I don't just play Milsim type games whatsoever. Actually only been to one MSW game in my life. I enjoy it, but I also enjoy the pew pew games, and fun banter entailed. I would try a game there, but unfortunately, the host and I seem to have irreconcilable differences, which I choose not to get into. I will say it's unfortunate as I'd much rather get along with everybody than not, and the whole issue is really pretty silly. Wouldn't be against hurrying the hatchet, if the opportunity ever presented itself.
I also won't get into any criticism about arm band supply being low. I wasn't there, and don't have the slightest idea how he runs things, or policies on returning bands. Not my place to criticize an event, or host when I wasn't there.
I know the games there are geared towards the newer players, and I think that's great. The more that get into the sport/hobby the better. It's good for younger players to have a place to "cut their teeth" so to speak, and I actually really enjoy running with newer players and helping them learn the ropes. It's one of the many things about the games at The Swamp that I enjoy the most.
Whether it's a full blown Milsim, a "Rick" game, or a free skirm, I always have fun. That's what this supposed to be about anyway, isn't it?

[ClownBaby]

3M/Scotch brand duct tape in the light blue and lime green work well, they are unnatural colors. Cheaper than the Duck brand.
One on each arm, a strip on the back for Jew and anybody else who's smart.

Hey Cruz, don't you have a big old scope on that thing?

And yes, Bu and Brad should bury the hatchet. You would love that place, lots of long shots for yer LMG.

[Cruz FoxHound]

Here is what some other folks around the world are saying about this subject:

UK - http://www.airsoft-forums.co.uk/index.php/topic/18469-armbands/
Ohio - http://www.airsoftohio.com/forums/blog.php?b=791
Canada - http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=149343
Texas - http://houstonairsoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1169
Michigan - http://miairsoft.proboards.com/thread/48309/friendly-fire-incidents
Reddit (global) http://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/33czr5/friendly_fire/

How about THIS: http://overwatchapp.com/

* Tangent comment: Something to consider about the AP.com forum is that we are visible on the national & international level just like these other groups. What we say is accessible to non-AP folks as well -- whether we realize it or not, what we type here represents airsoft in the PNW... a Google search for 'airsoft friendly fire' or 'airsoft game armband discussion' brings up this very thread. *