The Decline of AP.com

[ClownBaby]

Bring back the "your mom" thread.

[Nark]

While most of making AP great again rests on us as existing users, a large amount also rests on the new visitors. When the older players continually log on and see yet another "need a team" thread we just leave because we've seen it play out a thousand times. If you lock the ability to create new threads till a user has hit 50 or even 100 posts, we could weed out the crap threads before they start. I feel like we need to encourage posts to be made in one massive thread, like we kinda had here, instead of everyone creating a new topic because it's marginally different from another users previous thread. That way instead of seeing a brand new discussion with the same outcome we can review one thread and we can pick and choose what to quote in relevance to our conversation and if User A & B are having a convo and C & D are and then find some common link they don't have to make yet another thread for it. Having a NEW PLAYERS CLICK HERE section on the landing page would help a lot. It could include all the necessary links and advice.

Could we be nicer to new players? Yeah. Do we do it with the intention of hurting them? No. Do we just want them to get better and grow up and show that they're mature enough to care? Yes.

[ClownBaby]

I never thought that shooting plastic at someone would teach me caring, strange world.

What about moving those articles on the main page, and replacing them with stuff for newbs.
Like a comprehensive article on what makes a good starting gun, or team building, basic rules, kit, and expected behavior. I know theirs threads for all that, but if it's the first thing they see...

Also, finding a polite way of saying, "here's the info you need (mostly) don't ask"

*Edit: Or since more people are visual learners, how about some fun video content, that's right on the main page. It won't play unless you click it, and make sure any music you choose for the video can't link to Steve's Pandora.

[Junto]

Forums across the internet died out.

The world shifted to social media that didn't require making a new account. Forums are out. Facebook is in. And at some point, Facebook will go away and a newer even more invasive social media will take over.

If forums are to live they need a way to sign in without creating an account. Forums beat Facebook in many ways, like stickies and easier searching and storing of information. But they are old tech. Old news.

This. People can bemoan quitters and community, but it's really this. I'm not out of contact with most of the AP people that still play. We just find and coordinate our games now directly through the hosts or through groups on Facebook like Airsoft Games in Oregon. I love this place (and it was around years before 2007, by-the-by. I think that's just when this current incarnation of the site itself relaunched). I've been on here since late 2005/early 2006. Seen a lot of fine discussions. Had a lot of fun. It's just not convenient to try and get a mass of players to sign up for and use something other than Facebook.

[Steve]

I never thought that shooting plastic at someone would teach me caring, strange world.

What about moving those articles on the main page, and replacing them with stuff for newbs.
Like a comprehensive article on what makes a good starting gun, or team building, basic rules, kit, and expected behavior. I know theirs threads for all that, but if it's the first thing they see...

Also, finding a polite way of saying, "here's the info you need (mostly) don't ask"

*Edit: Or since more people are visual learners, how about some fun video content, that's right on the main page. It won't play unless you click it, and make sure any music you choose for the video can't link to Steve's Pandora.

F***. I'd maybe be willing to help write some stuff up if it means a promise that crappy music doesn't end up ear humping me. Whiny boy bands aren't hardcore. Gimme some krautrock at least.

I don't much mind answering questions from new guys. I was new to a bunch of different things a bunch of different times in my life. Had folks nice enough to point me in the direction of not being a retard, sure don't mind repaying the favors.

What I do mind is when some kid asks a stupid question using every key on their keyboard except the ones with letters on them. Here's a real big tip for getting a helpful, respectful answer (at least from me): Take the time to use proper spelling and grammar. If it isn't worth your time to try to ask a question like an adult, it isn't worth my time to answer respectfully. I'm not saying I expect to see something out of a doctoral thesis or anything. I just want to be able to read it quickly, pick out the salient points, and not feel like I need to improve the species by tracking you down and punching you in the tool with a sledgehammer.

As far as I can see, the big problem with AP is the lack of content. And, really, without some serious caretaking, that's just going to happen. There's over a decade of content on here. Most questions that can be asked have been, at least as far as basic stuff goes. This site sort of hit it's heyday through the years of OEF / OIF. I was military-ish from '97 to 2014, so before 9/11 and through the aftermath. So much stuff changed so quickly in terms of gear, tactics, camo patterns, and whatnot. All these changes led to a bunch of discussions about what changes meant what and to whom, with various opinions about how useful or applicable new stuff was to what we were doing. Those discussions are a lot of what fuelled this site. Sure, folks posted a bunch of stuff to off--topic too, but I'd be willing to wager that most folks were coming by for the serious discussions, and the OT stuff was more fun than filling.

The military is heading pretty quickly toward a peacetime footing. That means we won't see a ton of innovation or change from that side of the house. We'll still see the occasional breakout technology, but most of the changes are likely to be incremental refinements, and not really applicable to anyone outside of a very small crowd of dedicated milsim guys.

There are still some things to discuss. New replicas come out all the time. Reviewing those would likely draw folks back in. I don't know how easy or hard it is to embed photos in posts. YouTube videos are pretty easy, but not really my thing. There's definitely a series of discussions to be had comparing what tactics work in the real world and what work for airsoft. And probably even some valuable dialogue to be had comparing milsim, speedsoft/CQB, and general woodsball. Specifically, what gear works for what. And since everybody is likely to have significantly different ideas, it would likely be a pretty fun set of discussions to have. I can pretty much guarantee that my list of required and nice to have kit is a lot different from most of the folks on here. Not necessarily better, but definitely different.

I'd love to see some system implemented to make sure that new folks actually read the damn stickies and use the search function. I can't think of a way to do it without setting the bar too high for entry. I've seen other forums require a certain number of discussion posts before you can start a new topic, which might work. I've also seen what amount to comprehension quizzes covering FAQs before you can post at all.

As far as changing things up to be more welcoming of new players goes, I really truly think that it's up to newcomers to adapt to the existing user base, not try to force the regulars to adapt to the newcomers.

In closing: At the end of the day, this is Matt's site, and it's his business. Whatever changes he does or does not decide to make, whoever he decides to make a mod, it's entirely his decision to make. Our options start and end with deciding to contribute content.

[Junto]

Paintballers are out for blood, where as most airsofters will tell you they don't go for head shots and they honor safety kills, they are out there for fun and not to make someone bleed. I don't know if the creator's of HPA tanks have them all cursed by a witch doctor, or what the deal is, but players who use HPS rigs come at airsoft with a whole different attitude. It's RPS down range, feathering their trigger, making their replicas as quiet as possible to make sure they can't be seen or heard. It's not Airsoft it's speed ball. It's not milsim, it's M4 SAW gunners. So we see SpeedSoft start to pop up, SpeedQB as some people are calling it these days.

Also this. I've started calling the occasional HPA hit in the field that I haven't even taken yet rather than let myself get raked with HPA-gun fire. I don't know how they do it, but at the same speed, with the same projectile, they hit harder, leave bigger bruises, and do more damage. The guys wielding them nearly always blast me square in the head. Going out with nothing over my mouth and sporting shooting glasses like I could 2006-2012 is less and less feasible because so many of these people are just trying to float as many BBs as possible at the highest FPS possible into whatever part of you will hurt the most.

Airsoft, to me, was never about trying to hurt the other guy. HPA rigs are for hurting people into calling it, much like bunkering people in paintball. It's just not something I feel is in-line with the spirit of the sport. People treating the 400 FPS limit like a speed limit that they try to match and hold, rather than a maximum allowable velocity, has also led our allowable FPS to increase at games. If you increase from 400 to 420 to cover the people that tried to upgrade or buy 400 FPS for their weapon and overshot a little, you just set a new limit for them to shoot for. Then they stick and HPA kit in it, crank the RPS, and run up on you dumping as many rounds as possible while you scream hit. And what does a semi-auto only lock matter on an HPA DMR rig if they've got a tweaked trigger and can tap it near as quick?

Damn hosemongers.

[Steve]

As the contents of my garage can attest, I've been through a lot of phases in my airsoft-playing days. Got my start playing "black dog" games on public property with friends before we knew that there were places to actually go play airsoft legally. Played outdoor woodsball, done the hardcore CQB stuff with realcap mags. Nowadays, I mainly run CQB, running drums or high-caps. I've chased the high ROF setups, and still prefer them. Got burned buying a first-gen WE GBB M-4. I've been lucky enough to avoid the whole HPA thing. Too expensive, too fragile for me.

I'll stick to high ROF, short barreled CQB guns with tracer units chronoing as close to 300 FPS as I can get them. MOSFETs, when they work, 11.1v lipos in everything. It's not so much about dumping 60 rounds into somebody as it is being able to pick a spot and denying the other team the ability to move through that space. Now, if I watch my tracers bounce off some dude from 30 feet away and they don't call their hits, well, that's on them. But generally, the goal is not to light somebody up like a Christmas tree so much as it is to render an area uninhabitable before the other guys try to use it.

That being said, most of the time I run across guys with HPA systems, they are looking for a chance to light people up with as many rounds as possible.

[ClownBaby]

Dogpile, what they said.

[ogrejager]

I don't necessarily feel the same way about HPA systems.

I've got one. I put it on a bolt for a more consistent sniper rifle. What's that say?

When my SAW breaks, I'm going to put one in it. Why? Because I think the systems are simpler. If nothing else, I understand HPA a lot more than I do gearboxes.

It's not about "hurting" or rounds per minute, necessarily. But, again, I'm not trying to turn an M4 into a miniSAW.

[Junto]

You're not a speed-QBr. I totally understand whay they're good for crew-served/support weapons and I like it when people manage to use them in a capacity that enhances gameplay even in Milsim environments, but for every deserving 249, 240 bravo, and HPA bolt rig being run by a responsible player who isn't out to maim people, there's 12 people with attitude problems and modded-out, HPA tapped combat machines looking to sink 20-30 rounds into my face mask. I've been fine with HPA bolt rigs since forever, since they literally predate my airsoft career and have never been misused before my eyes.

Either way, this is a digression from the main point of this whole topic.

Back on topic, the face of social media and online communication has changed. I don't think any amount of new content or moderation will drive users back. They're reading news on their phones while we're trying to sell them a newspaper, essentially. We're recording cassettes in an MP4 world here. I refer people here frequently, though, because what we actually have is a massive wealth of airsoft knowledge that can be searched through via the onboard search bar. When my non-player friends want to start playing and tell me the sort of things they're interested in, I send them here so they can get a clear view of what gun is good, and what sort of gear people get excited about. Shit like that, so I don't end up answering a thousand tiny questions about how far forward on their rail they should put their flashlight. We have solid review content. Plenty of opinion pieces on companies, and a lot of great wisdom and info in our stickies. Maybe we think less about bringing people back to a dead format, and more about transcribing the parts of this place worth archiving so that it can be used to continue helping new players.

And if you want community, I guess that's mostly face-to-face now. I may forget names, but I'll meet people and shake hands all day. Much better than meeting them on here via baby-punching pissing contests.

[Reascr]

You're not a speed-QBr. I totally understand whay they're good for crew-served/support weapons and I like it when people manage to use them in a capacity that enhances gameplay even in Milsim environments, but for every deserving 249, 240 bravo, and HPA bolt rig being run by a responsible player who isn't out to maim people, there's 12 people with attitude problems and modded-out, HPA tapped combat machines looking to sink 20-30 rounds into my face mask. I've been fine with HPA bolt rigs since forever, since they literally predate my airsoft career and have never been misused before my eyes.

I think more of the opposite. Being a member of /r/Airsoft (And hang out with a lot of the main members on a daily basis), we've had numerous discussions on HPA setups and largely what it's come down to seems to be a few problem people than anything else, and a lot of people who play speedsoft in California, that cause problems and make it bad for everyone else. Largely HPA setups are fine, as it's (obviously) the users who cause problems. They're the same people who would take an AEG and do everything they need to achieve the same results, P* setups just make this process easier. But even then, I've been to enough games throughout my reasonably short airsoft career that have P* users in them and I have yet to meet one that causes problems, and for my friends who aren't playing speedsoft and the like, the P* users are generally fine. I generally think that there are a lot less problems than people often think, because like everything, only the bad ever gets reported on and things that are good generally just don't get reported as that's the norm.

But that's not the point of the thread, so I'll leave my note here but won't continue to go on it. But this does make for a good thread, exactly what we need!

[ClownBaby]

So how many games have you been to where people were using them?
And have YOU been shot by one, were you over shot?

And yeah, snipers and LMG/HMG'S are fine.


I think anything that needs to be brought up, should be brought up on this thread.

[Reascr]

So how many games have you been to where people were using them?
And have YOU been shot by one, were you over shot?

And yeah, snipers and LMG/HMG'S are fine.


I think anything that needs to be brought up, should be brought up on this thread.

Considering my current game history is probably 20 games or so over the course of around a year and a 3/4ths, if I had to guess a good 10 of those games had P* users. When I was shot, I can't say I've been shot any more than I would by anyone else, if they allowed full auto probably 4-5 rounds wasn't uncommon for both users and non-users. So no, haven't been overshot. And when it comes to cheating I've seen more people cheating with AEGs and GBBs than anything else.

But when it comes down to it, I don't play in their primary focus which is generally speedsoft, I'm more of a milsim guy than I am anything else. But I do take info from my friends who do play speedsoft and from what I gather overshooting is normal in CQC.

[Matt]

Mcnair is right, AP was founded in 2002.

Really the reason for the decline here is just lack of leadership. I don't believe it has anything to do with how new people are treated. If you put on incredible events, have the best and most well known teams, people will take any amount of verbal abuse to be part of the group. But we're not that AP anymore. We haven't put on our own game in years. Nobody cares enough to take the initiation abuse when there's nothing cool to be initiated to. Somebody should tell the old timers.

And even if we are all nice and answer every question with a smile and hand out free cookies, people will still go to Facebook instead. The next generation of Airsofters (and just internet users in general) would rather not communicate in full sentences on a discussion forum.

The leadership here is just not engaged in the hobby anymore, after playing for 10-12 years we moved on to other things. For AP to make a comeback, it would take a full time job commitment from someone who's pushing everything we do. Airsoft Pacific back in 2007 wasn't just about running a forum - it was about promoting and coordinating awesome events, posting photos and videos, and having a whole team (APST) of moderators who were actively involved in the game.

I'm all about helping where I can and making AP more convenient for you guys. I just fear that if I spend any significant amount of time, very few people will care or even use AP. They'll just keep using Facebook. I could be wrong. If I upgraded AP to a new version of the forum with better mobile phone support, would more of you guys use it?

[Matt]

And Foxhound, I appreciate your offer to help mod, and we may still need your help. I haven't forgotten. There's just really not much conversation to moderate right now.