the IAR ( Infantry Automatic Rifle)

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the IAR ( Infantry Automatic Rifle)

Postby KA-BAR » Wed May 14, 2008 8:24 am

hey all Morgan with ATAC here,

well folks... the day of the saw gunner is dead, and box magged M4's will be milsim.period.

you can thank the United States Marine Corps!

looks alot like a HnK 416 if you ask me!


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The IAR was born of a concept founded by the USMC. It harkens back to the Browning Automatic Rifle. This light automatic rifle (not light by today’s standards) was an open bolt, gas operated, magazine fed light machine gun. It was employed by selected members of the USMC squad to provide light machine gun suppressive fire.

The LWRC IAR has dual fire modes. In semi-automatic, it functions closed bolt. If you toggle the selector from semi to open bolt automatic, the rifles bolt remains closed for the first ignition increasing ignition probability to 99.7% allowing the infantry automatic rifleman to take point on patrol, or be the first through any door. After that, the weapon will fire from the open bolt allowing light automatic fire support. When you release the trigger between strings of fire, the bolt remains to the rear. When you pull the trigger again, the bolt closes and fires continuously until the trigger is again released with all the advantages of an open bolt machine gun. To go back to closed bolt semi-automatic fire, you switch the rifles selector back to semi. The bolt closes chambers a round but does not fire. When you pull the trigger, you will get your 1 aimed shot with each pull. This offers all of the advantages of both types of systems with the disadvantages of neither.

The USMC recognized that the Browning BAR of WWII and Korean genealogy filled a role in the squad allowing accurate devastating suppressive fire reliably without the necessity of a quick-change barrel, or belt fed operation. That role was left to the General Purpose Machine gunners. Rarely on section attacks, breaking contact, or advancing to contact are rates of sustained fire required that of a true belt fed machine gun.

Currently the M249 squad automatic weapon undertakes that role. It is a belt fed, gas operated, open bolt light machine gun. The SAW was a purpose built weapon designed to counter cold war Soviet tactics of massed infantry and dismounted mechanized infantry pouring through the Fulda gap in extended line frontal attacks. The name of the game when countering the Soviets was massed troops and massed firepower. For an infantry section to compete with this, the SAW was born.

Today’s soldiers train and fight an entirely different enemy, in different territory and by different means. No longer are there long lines of demarcation between foes. No longer are they facing a massed horde from a fixed defensive position. The areas of operation are replaced by the geography of an urban landscape complete with schools, places of worship, hospitals and residences. There are nooks and crannies and impromptu defensive or ambush positions built into the landscape. Warfare has become fast and very fluid with far more movement of smaller elements of the battalion to defeat the enemy quickly and decisively through precise tactical fire and maneuver. It is not always clear who the enemy is or who the innocents are. Soldiers fighting small groups are far from the support of their compounds or encampments. They are fighting a low intensity conflict of short lived hit and run ambushes, fighting patrols, and small unit tactics.

On the modern battlefield, the SAW has proven to be a burden on the designated SAW gunner. The weight of the system, the unwieldiness of the belted ammunition, and the reliability issues introduced by using belted ammunition in dusty dirty and sandy environments all present problems. Frequent dismounts and remounts from vehicles or aircraft, or fighting from vehicles and aircraft require a handy multipurpose weapon that can provide light machine gun support, while having the inherent capabilities of a carbine.

The environments we fight in decrease the reliability of the SAW. When the weapon is in condition 1 (cocked open ready to fire), the chamber, feed tray is all-open to dirt and debris. When patrolling with an open bolt weapon, the sensitive areas of the weapon are all open for ingress of dirt that could prevent the chambering of a cartridge when the soldier pulls the trigger. His belted ammunition either in his belt box or loose must be kept as clean as the internals of the weapon or it will simply drag the dirt into the action as the gun pulls the belt into the feeding mechanism.

Those who do not understand the role of a magazine fed light automatic rifle are still fighting the last war and not looking to the vast majority of operations undertaken today.

The SAW gunner is very closely relegated to his function in the section. He cannot use his SAW to take deliberate surgical aimed shots at enemy combatants because his weapon is open bolt only operation. The entire weapon jerks as the trigger is pulled as the return springs of the action strip, load and fire a round. In a situation where accurate instead of suppressive fire is required, the saw gunner is an ineffectual member of the Squad. As described, in a low intensity conflict, most of the enemy killed are the result of deliberate surgical fire and not volumes of suppressive fire as they would on the open fields of West Germany against an invading horde. To drive this point home, it should be noted that the SAW has almost no place in small unit SOLIC (special operations low intensity conflict) operations and many units do not have them in inventory for lack of a more suitable solution.

The SAW gunner cannot be the first member of a “Stackâ€
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Postby McNair » Wed May 14, 2008 8:36 am

Box mags are for hosing fags ;) hah.

"As described, in a low intensity conflict, most of the enemy killed are the result of deliberate surgical fire and not volumes of suppressive fire..."
I remember reading reports that the majority of the kills made in the initial invasion of Iraq were from the SAWs and 240b's.
oh well.
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Postby KA-BAR » Wed May 14, 2008 8:41 am

prepare to get hosed Mcnair, you fag...ahahahahahahah!

well boxxed mags might not be totally milsim, but having a 100 round mid-cap in a CQC environment is now totally acceptable.

this does not mean overshoots are not marked as a ROE violation, they still count as a mark against you, but the capability to produce sustained fire, or suppressive fire is now a very realistic representation of what is going on with weponrey and tactics in the real world.
Last edited by KA-BAR on Wed May 14, 2008 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Beran » Wed May 14, 2008 9:10 am

yeah i saw that on futureweapons a while back. i really like the idea of being able to have a weapon that has both open and closed bolt options, get the best of both worlds.
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Postby McNair » Wed May 14, 2008 9:22 am

Garrett wrote:prepare to get hosed Mcnair, you fag...ahahahahahahah!

well boxxed mags might not be totally milsim, but having a 100 round mid-cap in a CQC environment is now totally acceptable.

this does not mean overshoots are not marked as a ROE violation, they still count as a mark against you, but the capability to produce sustained fire, or suppressive fire is now a very realistic representation of what is going on with weponrey and tactics in the real world.



I've always been pretty accepting of anything 100 or under.
You have to give way to the fact of penetration power. the idea of the 30 round mag is nice... for indoors. but, outdoors, you need that compensation. Though, I cut it off at 100 ;) maybe 120, since that seems to be the avg?
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Postby Beran » Wed May 14, 2008 9:43 am

i think hes talking about for realistic CQC where you load your mags to real capacities.
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Postby KA-BAR » Wed May 14, 2008 9:55 am

[quote="KA-BAR"]The SAW gunner cannot be the first member of a “Stackâ€
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Postby CommieHunter » Wed May 14, 2008 10:26 am

Uum..

That's really cool.
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Postby Dees » Wed May 14, 2008 1:41 pm

Apples and oranges, you are talking about a CQC environment, which is a carbine/SMG/shotgun environment. The basic layout of squad kit for CQC is pretty different then a field environment, especially in weapons platform preferences.
I agree that a SAW (well, other then a Para) would be unweildy in a CQC environment, but in a field environment, the SAW/LMG remains one of the key components to fire and maneuver.
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Postby Variable » Wed May 14, 2008 1:44 pm

I don't get it. Are you looking for an excuse to use midcaps in the next cqc competition or an excuse to slap a big bleeding electric box mag onto your 416?
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Postby Dees » Wed May 14, 2008 1:53 pm

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.ph ... le&sid=885
Is a older article pertaining to this, but also it should be noted that the first gun they looked at using was this; http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg20-e.htm
I would personally think that a 100-150 round "Beta C Mag" would be fine in most circumstances, just so long as it is only 100-150 rounds and has the same dimensions as the real steel version.
Of course, one reason that the M249 and other belt fed weapons are used is the quick change barrel assembly, which is used to replace warped barrels in the field when the operator has fired several hundred rounds through it at too fast a rate. The adjustable gas regulator also is useful, since you can switch to adverse for clearing the carbon out of the action. One thing we did with them for room clearing was removing the gas regulator end cap and winding the helicoil spring considerably more, to increase the cyclic rate by about 300rpm, then we would use them for room clearing in one long burst (provided the room was all hostiles).
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Postby KA-BAR » Wed May 14, 2008 6:33 pm

I am not half as good as I want to be, but I am twice as good as you think I am.
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Postby PanzerFaust » Wed May 14, 2008 6:56 pm

Sweet lookin gat, think the military will implement it?
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Postby Dees » Wed May 14, 2008 6:59 pm

Gotta love video editing and controlled training environments.
For volume of fire, there is no replacement for a belt fed weapon system.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall all the M249s that I handled having a magazine port on them as well, and I don't recall jamming issues while using them.
I can see a strong interest in something like this, but to be honest, it is a mission specific tool. In a CQC environment, this would be a better way of going, but in a field environment, I just don't see them replacing a SAW/LMG with something that only holds 30-40 rounds for initial fire superiority.
I also see some disadvantages to the IAR pertaining to PMCS; namely barrels warping, magazine retainers breaking or wearing out faster and the same "tank" complex that Bradleys gave to infantry when first used in combat.
Its kind of like the old arguement about race cars; sure you can make a 4 cylinder have 1000 horse power, but there is no replacement for displacement, since the same amount of work to a V8 would last considerably longer and have less chance to explode.
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Postby Eyes On » Wed May 14, 2008 7:03 pm

Barrel = Not changeable = self defeatingly low practical ROF in the suppressive fire role.
100rnd C-mag = Piece of dog shit = jammaramma
100rnd mag is loaded 1 to 10 rounds at a time. 200 round belt fed drum mag needs no time for individual loading.
100 rounds is less than 200 rounds no matter how you slice it.
Open/closed system is all well and good, but irrelevant at the practical ROF.
If you have a SAW, then no, you can't be the first guy in the stack. If you have a SMAW, then you can't be the first guy in the stack either. If you have a DMR, you don't get to be the first guy in the stack... the point is, there are more guys who DON'T get to be first in the stack than there are who DO get to be first in the stack.
SAW uses M-16 mags also.

Adoption of this weapon is little more than a pyrrhic solution to a marginal problem.
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