League Membership / Card Voucher System

[Deliverator]

If we(my team) had to pay 25$ extra per year to attend one or two OPs up north, on top of 15$ for bio BB's, on top of 30$ in field fees, on top of 10$ in food, on top of 20$ in gas (if we carpool) then suddenly our costs are getting dangerously close to 100$ per game.
If we see this sort of system happening, I think that you will see a dramatic drop in attendance from southern Oregon and any other areas.

I'm glad you can do math... two games per year at $90 dollars total = almost $100 per game! Good lord, that sure is a lot of money!

Also, any game can register as an AP game if they want to be part of that scene. I don't see why southern Oregon promoters and hosts can't host games within the "league" or whatever you want to call it.

[Matt]

I think a paid league is a good idea.

Here's what I would like to see:
1: New Players
a. Training events for new players at low / no cost to attendees. Admins, trainers, and support staff are volunteers from within the ranks of established members of the community. Camp out the night before, play the next day. Cover the cost of these events with donations, raffle tickets, or membership fees.
b. Events and skirmishes for younger players AND THEIR PARENTS, again using established community members as admins and support. Show the parents what their kids are getting into.

2: League-specific events
a: Holiday events where league members can get together to play in member-only games
b: Multi-game days. Short scenarios broken up by age bracket. Figure people will spend an hour running a scenario, and an hour watching the kids run the same scenario, then move on to the next scenario. Rinse and repeat. Shorter duration games, with the younger players being able to watch how the old folks did it and ape their performance.

3: All-star games
a: League-specific teams set up with a "draft" system once a quarter or so. Rotate teams each event. This breaks up existing organization structures and encourages folks to meet and mingle with strangers within the sport.

4: Member-specific historical data archives.
a: List games that players registered for, games players actually attended, leadership role held (if any, such as fire team leader, admin, or CO) and include a column for merits / demerits per game. Allow event promoters that are members of the league to access this data.
b: Allow members to "vote" on other players' behavior, positively / negatively. Keep a running tally of the totals within the last month, three months, year, and lifetime.

5: Member options on forums:
a: Allow users to selectively block posts from users (for example, if KA-BAR wanted to ignore all posts from me, he could click a box next to one of my posts and it would hide all posts from me, or show that there was a post, but he would have to click on a button to show that post).
b: Allow members to vote + or - on individual posts. When a post reaches a certain threshhold it is either disemvoweled, hidden, or deleted altogether. This lets the community police itself. Limit this to members as a bonus to stay a member.

All good ideas.

With RSVP built into our next site, we're halfway there on being able to keep records on games attended. And the ability to ignore/hide individuals in forum posts - already working on that.

[Nox]

I'm glad you can do math... two games per year at $90 dollars total = almost $100 per game! Good lord, that sure is a lot of money!

Also, any game can register as an AP game if they want to be part of that scene. I don't see why southern Oregon promoters and hosts can't host games within the "league" or whatever you want to call it.

Oh we could host games down here in the "league" but the turnout would be scarce compared to the turnout up there, and it would fall apart because there arent enough players down here to support a decent sized OP.
Also, depending on your luck with employment, 100 bucks is a shit ton of money - I'm an unemployed college student getting minimal unemployment and even after trimming the fat I can barely make it to my local games and buy bb's at the same time while maintaining a roof over my head and heat. So yes, depending on who you are - it IS alot of money. The drive up north..JUST the drive, is 100 bucks in gas for me alone.
We have one promoter down here, but the field is now bogged down in diplomacy and red tape so that might disappear soon, and the regular field we use is pretty decent for skirmish games but for any size OP it would have to be tweaked and worked over in order to provide much of anything.

[Deliverator]

We aren't talking about changing everything from the ground up. We are talking about adding a penthouse.

[Matt]

Deliverator - good point.

Oh we could host games down here in the "league" but the turnout would be scarce compared to the turnout up there, and it would fall apart because there arent enough players down here to support a decent sized OP.
Also, depending on your luck with employment, 100 bucks is a shit ton of money - I'm an unemployed college student getting minimal unemployment and even after trimming the fat I can barely make it to my local games and buy bb's at the same time while maintaining a roof over my head and heat. So yes, depending on who you are - it IS alot of money. The drive up north..JUST the drive, is 100 bucks in gas for me alone.
We have one promoter down here, but the field is now bogged down in diplomacy and red tape so that might disappear soon, and the regular field we use is pretty decent for skirmish games but for any size OP it would have to be tweaked and worked over in order to provide much of anything.

This is always a concern with things like this. When you design a program that works well for your local members, you have to consider how it can work and benefit folks who are far away. I see it like franchising. If it works for us and we have success with it, there's no reason why at some point we can't take the same system and apply some regional sub-groups to it. In an ideal world, it promotes growth of the hobby in your region too. This is also another reason why it needs to scale. For those who want to take advantage of it and have enough players to benefit, it may help them. For those who don't, they should still be able to participate and it should have minimal effect on their experience.

But it's gotta start somewhere.

[Falcon7]

I don't think the league is a good idea. It will just end up being a giant pain in the a$$ and nobody will want to deal with it anymore. Improved education, administration, and player tracking are a great way to cut down on hacking. If you are going to use cards for ID, you may as well just use drivers licenses/permits, student body cards, stuff like that. That way you have a nice laminated ID card that you don't have to buy, issue, or scan.

[john boy]

I don't think the league is a good idea. It will just end up being a giant pain in the a$$ and nobody will want to deal with it anymore. Improved education, administration, and player tracking are a great way to cut down on hacking. If you are going to use cards for ID, you may as well just use drivers licenses/permits, student body cards, stuff like that. That way you have a nice laminated ID card that you don't have to buy, issue, or scan.

+1
It is up to the unit/team to train their individuals. If they fail, they are not invited to events. Sort of like NWO and Team Terror. Notice they aren't around any more..
If event host allow single operators and unattached members into there event. The host needs to find a way to deal with an police them..

The draft should only be for those people who have no team ties. They also be taken out of the draft if they join a team..

[dos_Santos]

admin training?

i went to the BSP scorers course two days in a row. i got a chance to see how Bill and Adam run things. ever since they have always trusted me to be a fair and partial admin.

i have been a player admin for atleast 6 or 7 games/skirms.

i think what it boils down to is people trust the word of valued and honest members of this community.

although i maybe a asshat on the forums, my onfields sportsmanship is usually never questioned for the fact that i leave no room for error. i call my hits and take my walk of shame back to spawn, come back and hopefully find you in the same spot and shoot yer a$$. the formula for fun in airsoft and good sportsmanship is really that easy.


now if you are going to train admins, and thye are going to take the time to make the game fun, safe and honest..... then you better be paying them some money. i know a few promoters who do take very good care of thier admins.

riddick aka Rick Fisher has always treated me fairly and as a friend. i am always welcome to his games, and when he needs extra on field help i always put my best foot forward to help him make his games that much more enjoyable. he pays what he can to me, mostly he gives me free admission to his games providing that i admin a game for him for free.

you want good quality admining at events. this is the way to get it done.

i for one would be happy to assist any event promoter in getting a admining core up and online. but also realize.... i like playing too.

Unfortunately, there aren't even 10 of you to admin...There needs to be a set ratio of admins (on the same page, qualified, etc.) to players. Even 5 admins for 150 people is not enough.

[Mini-Marine]

It is up to the unit/team to train their individuals. If they fail, they are not invited to events. Sort of like NWO and Team Terror. Notice they aren't around any more..
If event host allow single operators and unattached members into there event. The host needs to find a way to deal with an police them..

The draft should only be for those people who have no team ties. They also be taken out of the draft if they join a team..

Not everyone is part of a team, and even those that are, aren't always playing with their team at events, it wouldn't really be fair for game hosts to put in requirements that are different if you are on a team or an unaffiliated player.

[Seagreen]

I went to the BSP scorers course two days in a row. i got a chance to see how Bill and Adam run things. ever since they have always trusted me to be a fair and impartial admin.

The truth of the matter is that the basis of any successful event ends up being the quality of the administration when you really start mixing the player demographics.

We ask anyone interested in getting involved with the admin aspect to volunteer and then we provide full event details, expectations, and the overall intent of what we'd like them to be doing. Morgan hasn't failed us in any of those regards.

I think what it boils down to is people trust the word of valued and honest members of this community

I think there is a lot to that, but there is also the "X" factor whenever you are dealing with opinion. Some people just don't get along, even if they are both good guys in their own seperate way. Everyone can probably relate plenty of people within the community and their regular working lives with this aspect. The problems associated with it in our environment is the actual impact it could have if a high profile person starts creating stink about one person just to get them "banned" from where they will be.

One case would be Knuckles V. KA-BAR. A couple of high profile people, one specifically doing as much damage to the latter as possible to hurt their credibility....Both though were valued and trusted in the community at the same time.

Unfortunately, there aren't even 10 of you to admin...There needs to be a set ratio of admins (on the same page, qualified, etc.) to players. Even 5 admins for 150 people is not enough.

We always tried to maintain sectors of control for the events we ran. Some events used as few as 8 admins, others require a lot more. The key though is the people who were adminning. There is a huge difference between someone following the gameplay in their sector, using comms to update what's happening there to the upper admin element (as to whether he requires more admin in his area or any pertainent news), and calling the game fair and keeping it fun...versus a douche with a vest who is static staring at the ground and fidgeting with his ballsack.

The players ultimately reward or deny an event host by their dollars. If the events are not fun, people will not go in mass....and if they do go in mass and the event is a giant piece of shit, they usually won't trust that organizer again easily.

[Matt]

Thanks everybody for all the awesome feedback. Positive or negative. There's some really great ideas being shared, and some really good points being raised. And I am surprised at how this conversation has been kept civil for this many pages. It must be that Christmas spirit.

[Deliverator]

I just want to say... We love you Bill!


Seagreen Says: Loving you back, Zack.

[Zack]

I don't think the league is a good idea. It will just end up being a giant pain in the a$$ and nobody will want to deal with it anymore.

How so? You're speaking absolutes, with no supporting evidence. That's generally not a good way to express an argument, the lack of proof (in argumentative terms) usually doesn't lend much credibility, or weight to the argument.

Improved education, administration, and player tracking are a great way to cut down on hacking.

Did you read this thread? That's exactly what has been suggested for a "league". Not ranking matches and cup. From what I've noticed, this community on a whole does not want reward based competition, and for good reason. What's been suggested (as far as I can tell) is a body to improve education, administration, and player tracking/accountability. To move the hobby to more legitimacy than what we have.

Also, there seems to be a lot of fear that people won't be able to enjoy our fine hobby without paying dues, as if some teamsters are going to come kneecap you. There's a basketball league, but I can still play in the street, or at the park, or where ever. It CERTAINLY doesn't stop people from learning to play basketball.

If you are going to use cards for ID, you may as well just use drivers licenses/permits, student body cards, stuff like that. That way you have a nice laminated ID card that you don't have to buy, issue, or scan.

Not everyone has these. Also, many people would not want to hand over government issued ID, as it usually has sensitive information (SSN, etc.).


Matt, you've got some good ideas going, and some very good ones have been presented. I hope you and others can look through all the whargarble and knee jerking reaction, hopefully to engage in a course of action that will benefit out community.

[Variable]

stuff.

Don't worry about it. Southern Oregon and other outlier areas won't ever really be assimilated into the group whole of the Northern Community due to lack of local community buy-in. League or not.

[Falcon7]

Yes I read the whole monstrosity. All the pros and cons seem to be laid out at this point, just stating my opinion. We don't really need a league to achieve the things I mentioned. It just sounds like a way to add more fees, rules, and whatnot and get in the way of the game. IDs are going to be needed in some form or another, just throwing out ideas. Hell, maybe we could set something up where you somehow sign into events with your AP account. Would make attendance way easier to keep track of and the the computer could do most of the work. Not sure how that would be set up though.