Tac-Ops indoor arena Portland, OR

[Minerva]

I understand what Matt is saying, and I understand that 10 more will. But why not make it 11? Sure you don't get the rental fee, but it's better then not making any money at all..

Like I said earlier, if they don't make the profit off of that particular demographic, someone else will.

Hell I'd even be ok with paying some sort of fee to bring in my own gear if they are worried about covering their overhead

[DJ]

ARRRRGGHH!!! Too much information........people, quit speculating and just wait a few days, we ( all of the above) will get as much info as possible. At face value these people seem open to suggestions, just be patient, and ( as was said above) don't get your unders in a bunch.

[Icepick]

Hmm... So Tuesdays and Thursday evening are devoted to AP members, and the weekend is for the general public? Doesn't seem like a bad idea, but there might be a problem with this... I am in no way trying to challenge or offend you, but you have heard of customer loyalty, and competition right?

As for customer loyalty, if you scrap the whole AP weekdays and public weekends, and let these AP guys come in on the weekends with their own replicas. You are bound to have a stronger customer base, guaranteed. You see, we are (well I'm slowly progressing) grown men who can drive ourselves to and from your business, who make our own money and want to spend it having fun with eachother. So what reason do we have not to? One big reason is that we have limited time frames, and can't always have fun on the weekdays.

As for competition, there's everybodies favorite indoor arena, Oregon Airsoft. The place has practically tanked, and there are about 20 young children that show up there every weekend, and that is all the business they get now. Hell, its not much in terms of competition but it serves as an EXCELLENT example as to why you don't rely on kids as your customer base. I was a weekend regular at S4 Tactical, and still was when it became Oregon Airsoft... The regular crowd certainly wasn't as intense as these guys here, but we at least put some effort into buying our own gear and parts for our replicas! A few months after Oregon Airsoft opened up, the place started letting in loads of 13 year olds kids, and it basically went downhill from there. Which in turn drove us all off as we couldn't have fun shooting Alvin and the Chipmunks.

My point is that from a marketing standpoint, change the age limit to around 16 and let us bring in our own replicas. That way, you can have a more quality customer base, and you can be a part of the airsoft community in the Northwest. If you kept close ties with Airsoft Outlet NW, and Airsoft Pacific the community here would be bound to keep you guys in business. And more serious players looking to get into the hobby could do so. Pertaining to that, it would be a GREAT way to promote your business, and you could probably do it for pretty damn cheap too.

(Whew.)

[Minerva]

I honestly think it'd be better just to let everyone attend. If you have your own replica, cool beans. If not, that's cool too. I don't care who does goes there, just don't exclude people.

[RiotingCows]

Just consider there an new business and they need to make there investment back so maybe after a while once they've broken even they'll allow it but for now they need the positive flow.

I would rather buy loads of field ammo and use my own gun just so I don't run there guns into the ground. And besides my P90 needs love too.

[axisofweasles]

On a personal note, rather than seeing the fee structure as x dollars gets you on the field, ammo, and a rental, I'd prefer to see it as x dollars gets you on the field and ammo, and if you don't have your own kit, you are welcome to use ours, with the caveat that if you break it, you buy it.

The cost stays exactly the same whether you are using your gear or rental gear, but you get to use gear that is already zeroed to you and is set up in a way that you are familiar with.

Rental guns only is a pretty major turn-off for me.

Plus, "rental guns only" cuts down on the ability to have a pro shop at the facility later on. If you can't use the toy you buy there, why buy it there?

Ok, everyone take a deep breath and step back a minute...

No one ever said that you have to use house-guns all the time. Two days a week are devoted to the player that wants to use their own weapons. Please try to understand that this is a business first and they are about turning a profit. You go where the money is. Their demographic is 10-17 year old kids. They weren't even going to let people use their own guns at all until I suggested otherwise, which is proof of their willingness to make concessions for the hobbyists.

[axisofweasles]

But only on the weekdays?

And to only cater to 12-17 year old kids? That's tunnel vision in business. You're alienating a large audience that would like to be able to pew-pew when it's convenient for them. Not only when the business decides to tolerate their presence.

If you can convince the insurance companies that it would be ok, then you are more than welcome to try. I am really not trying to be a tool, here... but what do you really know? You are like, what? 19? What do you know about running a business, dude? They cannot please everyone! No one can! They are about trying to be as inclusive and permissive as the liability will let them.

[axisofweasles]

I'm guessing part of the reason why they have a "NO outside guns" rule may have to do with safety. They want to know exactly what gear is being used. Considering you don't know how/if the guns being brought in were upgraded, or if outside magazines were loaded with .20 gram BBs or .43 - the safe bet is to require that all equipment be your own. Perhaps as they start to get the swing of things they may allow more outside guns once they have their screening practices figured out.

You nailed it, Matt. Also, if everyone uses the same weaponry, no one has an advantage. It becomes much more balanced.

One final thought, If a group of AP folks were to rent the place out for a few hours (which is one of the advertised functions of the place), then I am certain the owners would allow you to bring in your own weapons. The idea here is not to mix modded guns with the stock house-guns. They have to be kept separate for safety.

[Junto]

This whole discussion is just... ugh. I didn't buy hundreds of dollars worth of replicas to not use them. If you chrono a non-house gun with house ammo and it is within the limit, there is absolutely 0 difference between how safe it is and how safe the rental equipment is. If this place is going to have a bunch of rules that claim a basis in safety, but stand in the face of... logic and physics, you can count me out.

[Seahawk]

But only on the weekdays?

And to only cater to 12-17 year old kids? That's tunnel vision in business. You're alienating a large audience that would like to be able to pew-pew when it's convenient for them. Not only when the business decides to tolerate their presence.

If you can convince the insurance companies that it would be ok, then you are more than welcome to try. I am really not trying to be a tool, here... but what do you really know? You are like, what? 19? What do you know about running a business, dude? They cannot please everyone! No one can! They are about trying to be as inclusive and permissive as the liability will let them.

That is why you use a thing called a Chronograph. You know, the thing that checks the FPS of a gun. Also regarding bb weight, use bbs with a non white or black color as field bb's and/or check mags/speedloaders before games. Talk to oregon airsoft arena to get help finding a good insurance company if you really can't find an insurance company. They allow "modded guns" all the live long day.

I suppose my other question running through my head right now is. "If your supposedly trying to connect with the "hobbyists", why are there so many damn restrictions that won't allow us to play the hobby the way we want to play. Most of us have jobs and can only play on the weekends, and right now we have two choices or a indoor close quarters place. The 10-13 year old clusterfuck that Oregon Airsoft Arena has become or you guys, and quite frankly you guys are looking like the Portland branch of OAA.

Seriously, try posting to one of the many family activities sites' for portland that are around since that seems to be all you need (or want) to target to make it.

Edit

. If you chrono a non-house gun with house ammo and it is within the limit, there is absolutely 0 difference between how safe it is and how safe the rental equipment is. If this place is going to have a bunch of rules that claim a basis in safety, but stand in the face of... logic and physics, you can count me out.

This

[Minerva]

I never claimed to. It doesn't take someone with a business degree to realize you are alienating all of us.

Oh and this:

This whole discussion is just... ugh. I didn't buy hundreds of dollars worth of replicas to not use them. If you chrono a non-house gun with house ammo and it is within the limit, there is absolutely 0 difference between how safe it is and how safe the rental equipment is. If this place is going to have a bunch of rules that claim a basis in safety, but stand in the face of... logic and physics, you can count me out.

[Steve]

This whole discussion is just... ugh. I didn't buy hundreds of dollars worth of replicas to not use them. If you chrono a non-house gun with house ammo and it is within the limit, there is absolutely 0 difference between how safe it is and how safe the rental equipment is. If this place is going to have a bunch of rules that claim a basis in safety, but stand in the face of... logic and physics, you can count me out.

This^^

Force = Mass x Velocity. As long as you chrono with house ammo (which should be a given, since the only ammo allowed on the field is the house ammo that is being provided as part of the play cost), and as long as the velocity is under 350 FPS, the force, in joules, will be pretty much the same whether it is a rental gun or a super-l33t tricked out n00b cannon of d00msmiting.

0.2 grams at 350 FPS is 0.2 grams at 350 fps regardless of source. We respect the laws of physics in this here activity!

Oh, shit. You guys ARE using 0.2 gram pellets, right?

[Minerva]

Something tells me they don't know the difference between .12's..

[Junto]

Seeing as they keep referring to outside guns as "Modded", I'm sensing a lack of knowledge of the internal mechanics of an AEG, a lack of knowledge of physics, and a lack of knowledge in regard to the hobby as a whole. I find all of that very disconcerting, from a safety standpoint. My CA AUG shoots 325-330 with a .2 gram pellet even with the tight bore. Simply having a "modification" does not give anyone some supposed unfair advantage over their opponents. They're not magical, and all of their effects can be measured.

That said, depriving me of the platform of my choosing puts me at a greater disadvantage because my motor skills are honed to shooting and reloading with that platform.

These rules are bleeding silly. Enough said.

[Riddick]