No Shows - The Great Debate

[Reese]

No-shows is part of the business. Prepay only works if the event warrants prepay. I would prepay for a CQC event, I wouldn't prepay for a glorified skirmish. Prepay only works if their is a finite number of openings and a larger demand than there is openings. Why would people prepay when they know the event is wide open?

People have historically shown up last minute to big Ops. That's just how it is. The best course of action is to plan for a small number and expect more to show up. If you automatically assume you're going to get 400 or 500 players, you might end up disappointed. You can try charging more for the Op and weed out some of the flakes, but that might also turn around and bite you in the a$$.

No offense Rick, but your Ops most likely could not float a prepay. That's just not how they're built. Similarly, a Conflict Europe could not float a prepay. The only events that could charge prior to the event and get away with it would be a CQC tourney or a large-scale OP that has a high demand but only so many slots.

Just my 2c.

[Transition]

prepay seems to work for every other op in every other state...

[Darius137]

It's very odd in Oregon, but people here expect a lot and hate paying for attendance.

Also, because the costs have to be so low, the small details of games are usually cut out or done very poorly, so it feels like a cheap "Op".

I think to have a prepay, the game will have to step up and make some improvements.

No Shows are definitely a problem. If you have a prepay and lose half your attendees, that's fine, because smaller games with better players are more fun in my opinion and will keep the quality up.

[Reese]

It's very odd in Oregon, but people here expect a lot and hate paying for attendance.

Also, because the costs have to be so low, the small details of games are usually cut out or done very poorly, so it feels like a cheap "Op".

I think to have a prepay, the game will have to step up and make some improvements.

No Shows are definitely a problem. If you have a prepay and lose half your attendees, that's fine, because smaller games with better players are more fun in my opinion and will keep the quality up.

There's a line though. There's the events that are worth prepay and are worth paying the money for, and there's the events that are just about bringing high numbers so the event promoters can make a buck. Those events are crappy because the promoters make them crappy. They don't care about quality. Their only concern is making money and they will cut corners anywhere possible.

I do think the market in this region is shot because the average player here has so many options for games. There's literally an "OP" every month, sometimes two a month. The market is watered down, so the players know they can be picky or flippant when attending. Back in the old days (haha) there was only an Op every two or three months and if you missed it, there wouldn't be another one for a while. Sure there were skirmishes, but OPs were semi-rare. That's not the case anymore.

The even promoters have cultivated the current market that they operate in, and they have nobody to blame but themselves. Black Sierra is partially to blame. We did some pretty good events for dirt cheap prices, so the NW airsofters are spoiled. They expect good quality for low cost. It is what it is.

[Amos]

There's a line though. There's the events that are worth prepay and are worth paying the money for, and there's the events that are just about bringing high numbers so the event promoters can make a buck. Those events are crappy because the promoters make them crappy. They don't care about quality. Their only concern is making money and they will cut corners anywhere possible.

I do think the market in this region is shot because the average player here has so many options for games. There's literally an "OP" every month, sometimes two a month. The market is watered down, so the players know they can be picky or flippant when attending. Back in the old days (haha) there was only an Op every two or three months and if you missed it, there wouldn't be another one for a while. Sure there were skirmishes, but OPs were semi-rare. That's not the case anymore.

I wish there was a like button on here.

[Matt]

There's a line though. There's the events that are worth prepay and are worth paying the money for, and there's the events that are just about bringing high numbers so the event promoters can make a buck. Those events are crappy because the promoters make them crappy. They don't care about quality. Their only concern is making money and they will cut corners anywhere possible.

This is spot on. I am not suggesting every game become a pre-pay event - like Adam says they aren't worth it. No-shows are part of the business. If you want less no shows, you have to put on a better show. If pre-pay is too much to ask, having a more formal registration process might help (collect some actual data), maybe just a deposit?

Publicly berating people who are potentially your paying customers seems like a stupid idea to me. If you want to maintain your own list of no-shows and use it for your own benefit, that's cool. But I don't think we need to start a lynch mob.

[Jason Bourne]

What of those that show up but leave early?

Here here...

[Transition]

There's a line though. There's the events that are worth prepay and are worth paying the money for, and there's the events that are just about bringing high numbers so the event promoters can make a buck. Those events are crappy because the promoters make them crappy. They don't care about quality. Their only concern is making money and they will cut corners anywhere possible.

This is spot on. I am not suggesting every game become a pre-pay event - like Adam says they aren't worth it. No-shows are part of the business. If you want less no shows, you have to put on a better show. If pre-pay is too much to ask, having a more formal registration process might help (collect some actual data), maybe just a deposit?

Publicly berating people who are potentially your paying customers seems like a stupid idea to me. If you want to maintain your own list of no-shows and use it for your own benefit, that's cool. But I don't think we need to start a lynch mob.

disagree, lynch them, they are worthless

[Reese]

There's a line though. There's the events that are worth prepay and are worth paying the money for, and there's the events that are just about bringing high numbers so the event promoters can make a buck. Those events are crappy because the promoters make them crappy. They don't care about quality. Their only concern is making money and they will cut corners anywhere possible.

This is spot on. I am not suggesting every game become a pre-pay event - like Adam says they aren't worth it. No-shows are part of the business. If you want less no shows, you have to put on a better show. If pre-pay is too much to ask, having a more formal registration process might help (collect some actual data), maybe just a deposit?

Publicly berating people who are potentially your paying customers seems like a stupid idea to me. If you want to maintain your own list of no-shows and use it for your own benefit, that's cool. But I don't think we need to start a lynch mob.

Not to mention it will simply be another failed piece of legislation imposed by a small percentage of the greater whole in an attempt to control the growing population of casual players.

File this one away with the APL, NWAL, and any other attempt by this community to control airsoft.

[Transition]

i think change scares some....^

[Riddick]

To think that having the expectation of someone who signed up for an event and then decided to not go and us expecting them to post they are no longer attending - that in itself is asking to much from someone? really!

The public posting of the no show list is only to reinforce to let us know if you are not attending.

I asked for a long time without any real difference. Once I said I would start keeping track and posting it, all of a sudden I got a large response.

I do not enjoy doing it but just asking doesn't seem to help.

If you are a flake, you are a customer I don't want. Society out there will cuddle you and it sounds like others here as well. I won't. I shouldn't have to.

What I posted in the main thread is just a proposal. Nothing is set in stone. I personally do not want to go the PREPAY route but it is something I have considered.

I believe in the no show list. I will continue to use it. You don't like it or don't ever want to be included on it then all I ask if that you let me know you can't make it to the game BEFORE the game happens. That's it. It's that simple.

AP is a continuum of NOTHING EVER CHANGES. I take what I do seriously and do what I think serves in the best interest of what I provide.

I whole heartedly appreciate the players that support me more than they know. This is how I earn income for my household. It's not FUN MONEY like it is for others. So it is not in my interest to provide policies to prevent a continuing relationship but just asking has seem not to help and I believe a change was necessary. I hope you can respect this.

[Cyph34r]

I have personally seen prepay work here on AP, so saying that prepay would be a guaranteed fail seems a bit... stupid to me.

I don't agree with everything Rick thinks on the subject, but I disagree with him less than I disagree with some of his detractors in this thread.

[Jewish Ninja]

Though I haven't run games with the scale that Rick has, I have put on a few mini ops and had to deal with flakes as well. I like where Rick wants to take this. Showing up to a game only to see your team is grossly undermanned, even though the head count had it about even is a PITA and a letdown.

Put up a list of people that flake out so other event hosts know who will more than likely, not show up. I've never had a problem saying I can't make it to a game, so there is no reason why others can't do the same.

[Matt]

Rick - I don't disagree with you that no-shows need to be accountable. I just think there's smarter ways to handle it. Reminders, registry lists, etc. For now, folks who sign up are totally anonymous. Unless you start using cards for your customers, how do you even know who's who? How can you really enforce it when "SniperBeotch69" doesn't show up to a game?

I don't really understand the comment about FUN MONEY. We all have households and bills to pay. Your existence and financial situation isn't any more noble than anyone else's. You aren't a charity case, you're a business man.

[McNair]

Use your real name. Check ids. Simple.